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Thread: Magic power-training 101

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    Default Magic power-training 101

    H guys, now that I have my game working again (thanks again Nomad!), just want to refresh my knowledge of power-training the magic skills. I've played through the game multiple times allowing skills to simply rise as I use them, but this time I'm looking at a more unusual party (Rogue with Bloodlust/Faerie Ninja for smash, Gadgeteer for support, Bishop for magic) so I want to skill up early.

    My understanding of skill training is that:

    * the spell has to have the chance of having an effect to contribute to skill increase, so Charm, Knock-Knock or Divine Trap are re-cast new "over the top" of the previous cast every time, so each new casting contributes to skill increase, whereas Heal Wounds/All and Cure Lesser Condition will only contribute if the character is less than full HPs or actually afflicted by a condition?

    * Light, Missile Shield or other continuously-in-effect spells contribute to skill increase only if that spell power level is not currently active, so casting Light at power level 1 works if Light is not currently active, but further castings of Light at power level 1 won't contribute because the spell is already active and the new casting doesn't have a chance to have an effect? But you could cast Light at power level 2 over power level 1 and this would contribute, and then power level 3 etc?

    * attempting to cast a spell will contribute to skill increase whether it succeeds or not?

    * combining the above two points, spell power level doesn't affect the "rate" at which the casting contributes to skill increase, so each casting of a spell at level 1 contributes the same as a casting at level 7 (assuming that spell level isn't already active)?

    * a skill is always moving to the next skill level (higher levels take longer to increase) and each casting contributes to moving it some way along that path until it gets to the next level - so, each casting would go from (for example) skill level 35.0 to 35.3 to 35.6 to 35.9 to 36.2 when it will finally move from "35" to "36"? As opposed to a skill level being 35 and each new casting has a random and independent chance to trigger an increase to level 36 in a single cast?


    A final question - I see a lot of people talking about taking hours to properly train their characters, leaving the computer on overnight, going to watch a movie while it runs in the background etc. Why on earth wouldn't you just learn how to train, wait until you get to the point in the game where you are now eligible to do so (say you just learned the necessary spell to train), and then just use an editor to give your character the skill level you want? You're going to keep doing it until you get there anyway - why waste the time?

    Thanks and cheers in advance

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    Default Advice from the good-ol-days of Wiz 8

    Here is some Bishop advice that I saved from the web several years ago.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Training a Bishop

    I wish to personally thank Ariana for taking the time to recreate this training technique from her past postings at the IGN Forum for the Bishop. I made a special request of her to do this for the site because I know how much this has helped me to enjoy playing a Bishop where I had normally shunned them in the past. I think a Bishop intimidated me, thanks to you Ariana, they no longer do.

    Power-skilling bishops can be a tedious process (by power-skilling I mean the process of casting certain spells over and over and over in order to raise the related magical skills) but if you want a powerful party so that you can explore and enjoy with less concern about combat, or if you are playing ironman and really do NOT want to be back at the character creation screen, it may be worth the time and effort.
    For a bishop, the key thing to keep in mind is that many spells go into several different books (e.g. healing falls under divinity, alchemy and psionics) and when you cast a spell the book that has a chance to increase is whichever book has the HIGHEST skill at the time you cast the spell. So if you want to use a spell to increase wizardry, and that spell also happens to be under alchemy, you want to make sure that when you are ready to power-skill it your wizardry is higher than your alchemy.

    NOTE - as used here (per the game manual) the term "book" refers to the four types of magic that a magic using character may get based on his or her class. Divinity, alchemy, wizardry or psionics. The term "realm" refers to the six broad categories of magic; earth, air, fire, water, mental and divine.

    The other key consideration is that some books offer more power-skilling opportunities than others and you do not want to waste those. So if a book only has one spell that works well for this purpose, don't use it to power-skill another book.

    The best way to train all four books in my experience is to use knock knock for wizardry (I've never found another good spell for wizardry). Since you cannot also use knock knock for alchemy, you should use healing for alchemy. It would be a waste to use healing for divinity since divine traps works so nicely there (charm works too but is slower). Finally, that leaves mindread for psionics. Of course, the more realms you increase the better. So the gas chamber room (see below) is a better place to train healing than the crashed spaceship in Arnika since the trapped chest can nauseate you, allowing you to cast cure lesser condition to increase your water magic realm. Water magic is nice for a bishop since several paralyze spells are based on water magic.

    NOTE - if you have intelligence at 100 you get the powercast expert skill. This has a chance to go up with the casting of spells. So if you are at or close to 100 you may be well advised to get powercast before you settle in for your power-skilling sessions. There is a fountain in Trynton that can raise intelligence by 5 so you do NOT want to raise intelligence over 95 when you level-up.

    To follow the path outlined above, you start once you are in Arnika (you can use the gas chamber room to increase alchemy and divine magic in the monastery, just make sure that wizardry stays higher). Buy the knock knock book from Anna (bait shop) and head to the eight tumbler vault door in the bank (I could be more specific but this isn't a walk-through and I don't want to give more of a spoiler than some people will want). Cast knock knock at power level one (in the name of the Gods do not accidentally open the vault door - that would be a tragedy almost beyond description until you are done with it) until you are out of power. Rest. Repeat as needed.

    Every now and then cast other spells if you like - such as identify, light, detect secrets, enchanted blade, armorplate - to raise other realms but be careful to keep your books in the correct order (wizardry highest, then alchemy, then divinity then psionics). You can cast a LOT of knock knocks in a fairly short time so the process will not take you forever.

    NOTE - skills go up more slowly at higher levels. By the time you hit 80 earth magic goes up significantly more slowly. By 90 it is much slower. So you may not want to go all the way up. But the books increase uniformly regardless of level and I believe powercast does also.

    OK - now time for alchemy (I hope you remembered to keep it as your second highest book). If you don't like to travel or don't care about water magic, just head over to the crashed spaceship. One of the fires will damage you. Hurt yourself, heal yourself, rest, and repeat as needed. This takes care of alchemy and the divine magic realm. Faster this way than jumping off the spaceport elevator or down to the bank vault to hurt yourself (and the elevator jumps have a risk of crushing death for the entire party).

    Better is to go back to the monastery - gas chamber room. This is the room on the lower level with six chests in it near the ramp to the upper monastery. A friend of yours was near there once - name of Gregor. The big roach. Open the trapped chest (middle chest on the left as you enter). Cure lesser condition and heal. Do not have protection spells going - you WANT to be hurt and nauseated and protection spells will significantly reduce the benefit. Rest - this room is either totally safe to rest in or almost totally safe. I don't recall ever being rudely awoken by enemies near the chest. Repeat as needed.

    Alchemy can also be increased by mixing potions, especially when you are in a location where you can buy the ingredients. This may even be faster than healing after you reach skill level 40 and can mix cure disease. At skill level 50 mixing renewal really boosts alchemy quickly.

    The disadvantage is that mixing does not increase any magic realm. The advantages - and they are big ones - is that it gets you all the cash you will ever need (renewal sells for up to 5,000 gold - He'Li paying top dollar with the price tied to your communication skill), raises your artifact skill if you identify potions by clicking them once you have mixed them, and raises mental magic and divinity or psionics if you use the ID spell for identification. You need to identify the potion before selling it to get a good price - you can also buy identify scrolls from Lord Braffit or Anna but a party with a bishop doesn't need to and those don't work on renewal potions anyway.

    By the way, merchants in different places tend to focus on different ingredients. You can get them all in Arnika, waiting 24 hours for merchants to restock their inventories (24 hours is three uninterrupted rests - or easily measured by casting the light spell which lasts 24 hours before going out). Since game time is irrelevant there is no reason to save it by traveling between Mount Gigas, Marten's Bluff and Arnika to see who has what ingredients - might as well just stay in Arnika and buy from Lord Braffit and occasionally He'Li, sleeping your days away to let them restock.

    OK - time for divinity. Go to any trapped chest - the one you have just been opening and closing for several hours is special and cannot be used for this purpose. (There were several in Arnika that you could have left unopened for this purpose. Or you can go to Mount Gigas to the room with 10 trapped chests in the Base Camp. Or, if you got the wheel key in Arnika there are several near the gas chamber room - head towards Burz - the merchant in the upper monastery and turn right when you get to the movable bridge and walk over it to the wheel door. Warning - the room is not empty). Cast divine traps. Rest. Repeat as needed - you know the routine by now. Be careful not to cast knock knock by mistake especially in an ironman game.

    NOTE - you may also have a character that can pick locks. A rogue or gadgeteer or other low-life. If you want him or her to train-up lockpicking that 10 chest room is perfect (11 chests actually but, tragically, one is untrapped). Click on the chest. Click on identify the trap. Click on one of the tumblers needed to open the trap but NOT both of them - the idea is not to open the chest. Leave the chest menu. Return to the menu and repeat. Continue until the trap is set off and the chest opens and move on to the next chest. Have your bishop ready to cast cure poison if a trap poisons you - might as well raise your air magic a bit.

    Finally psionics. You need adjusted skill of 30 to learn mindread. NOTE - adjusted skill equals your book skill plus 1/10 of your skill in the magic realm that applies. So if you raised mental magic to 90 using divine traps you only need psionics at 21 to learn mindread (but you would need psionics at 30 to learn psionic fire if your fire magic skill was 9 or less). Go to any NPC (I recommend the personality challenged teller in the Arnika bank if you are nearby - she doesn't have much dialogue to slow you down - if you are in the wheel room of the upper monastery Burz is convenient). Attempt to read what passes for his or her mind. Rest. Repeat as needed.

    NOTE - each NPC has a standard and useless phrase that they give repeatedly. They also have two (there may be exceptions - I haven't tried every RPC in the game over and over) special responses each of which they give once and never repeat. None are required to finish the game, but if you are interested go slowly until you have gotten each of them). - Ariana


    This requires you to max divinity last, but you only have to wait till level 11 ( for heal all ). I like this method better because training psionics using mindread is extremely slow and annoying.
    Make sure you keep your points in the magic schools in the following order from highest to lowest:
    Wizardry
    Alchemy
    Psionics
    Divinity

    ( Just remember, you need to pump Divinity up to 60, while still keeping it lower then the other spell schools. I recommend that after you have gotten the other schools up to at least 90, you pump 3 points a level into Divinity and cast spells like make wounds every battle. With a little effort you should have Divinity up to 60 by level 11. )

    For training Wizardry we will be using knock knock. For training Alchemy we will use heal wounds. For training Psionics we will use divine trap. For training Divinity we will use heal all ( earliest heal all book is in Bayjin ).

    When you get to Arnika buy a book of knocks from anna and train Wizardry up to 90 at the 8 tumbler lock in the bank.

    For training Alchemy you can stay in Arnika and use the stand-on-the-fire method. Or, if you don't mind making your way to martin's bluff, a faster way is to touch the door button in lower martin's bluff ( the one you open with the t-rang arm ). Using either of these with heal wounds, you should get your Alchemy up to 90.

    Now for Psionics, find a chest with a trap and use divine trap to raise your Psionics skill to 90.

    After you have the other 3 schools up to 90 or above, its time to focus on getting your Divinity to 60 so you can learn heal all. Once you learn heal all, go to the door button in lower martin's bluff that you open with the t-rang arm. Cast heal all once, now touch the button. Now hold down shift and hit the "m" button. Now touch the button. Repeat untill you run out of mana. Then rest ( it is best to shut the door so monsters don't wander in while your asleep ). Repeat this entire sequence untill Divinity is 90+. - TinyMage

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    Default AtlusSevens BISHOP SPOTLIGHT

    More great Bishop material. The file date on this one is 2002. Good thing I'm an information packrat.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    AtlusSevens BISHOP SPOTLIGHT


    (Jandrall: Ive cut down the fat on this one. The excellent magicuser post that Atlus is referring to is the one called Magic User Info on my page)

    AtlusSeven

    As VERY few of you might remember, a while back I did a fairly long write up on how to effectively build up a Ninja character. I really enjoyed doing so. I love dissecting character classes in RPGs and learn how to use them to the best of their abilities. Call me what you will (ie--a powergamer, a munchkin, etc), but I just love doing it. ^_^ It gave me an idea, though. Every few days or so, I might post up a *SPOTLIGHT*, focusing on one particular character class and how to use them effectively and exploit their strengths. Who knows? Maybe it'll help others to give some of the over-looked classes a chance when they otherwise might not have.

    Since i've already tackled the Ninja (probably the most difficult class to use effectively), i've decided to deal with another difficult class--the awesome Bishop. So let's get on with it. ^_^

    BISHOP--

    In my current party, the ONLY spellcaster I have is my Bishop. And you know what? She's just a flat- out powerhouse, easily dwarfing any other spell caster I've ever had. She's only level 18 and already has all of her realms well above 80, some even maxed out at 100. Also, by having only one spellcaster, it frees up slots so I can pick more fighter-type characters (just so you know, the rest of my party is as follows---Samurai, Fighter, Rogue-changed to Ranger after I maxed out my pickpocket, stealth, and locks and traps, Ranger, and Valkyrie-changed to a Fighter after I maxed out her Polearms skill).

    The key Attributes to build up are Intelligence (I've noticed that your realms build up faster the higher this stat is, and you get the all-important Power Casting when you hit 100), Piety (so you get more spell points per level), and Speed (so your Initiative is very high, and you get Snake Speed once Speed hits 100 which increases your Initiative even further). Generally, you want to put 3 points into Intelligence on every level up (so you can get access to Power Casting as early as possible) and divy the rest up between Piety and Speed. Remember, too, that there's a secret fountain in Trynton that, if you answer it's riddle correctly, each party member gains +5 Intelligence. Once you max out your Intelligence, simply put 3 points each into Piety and Speed.

    Like someone mentioned in another post somewhere, the key is to building up your spellcasters-- ESPECIALLY the Bishop--is to use a variety of spells during combat so that you gain points in several different realms. Rather than cast Fireball over and over during combat, mix it up a bit. For example-- cast an Insanity (mental), then a Web (earth), then a Fireball (fire), then an Iceball (water), then a Magic Missile (divine), then a Whirlwind (air). That way you start to build up all your realms at a fast pace all at once. Outside combat, always cast Magic Screen and Enchanted Blade (Divinity), Armorplate and Chameleon (earth), Light (fire), Missile Shield (air), and Detect Secrets and X-Ray (mental). This way, you'll gain points in all realms (except Water) outside combat by "buffing up" your characters. Cast Charm and Mindread on ALL NPCs you come across to build up your Mental and Psionics realms. Also, casting Heal Wounds BEFORE you rest allows your spell caster to gain points in Divinity and Divine realms. You can also beef up a few of your realms by casting Cure Lesser Condition, Cure Poison, Sane Mind, etc after combat on afflicted party members, rather than rest for a few seconds to clear them up. Keep in mind--even after you hit 100 in a realm, you should still cast spells outside combat in that realm since it helps to build up your Power Casting special skill.

    When you level up, only put points into your Primaries (Wizardry, Psionics, Divinity, and Alchemy). Your secondary realms (fire, water, divine, etc.) tend to increase much easier through use than your Primaries do, so don't bother allocating points in them unless you really need to. The only reason you might want to is, for example, you just learned Fireball, but your Fire realm is way too low to successfully cast it on at least Power Level 1. It's best to pump 3 points each into Wizardry, Psionics, and Alchemy. Divinity will raise up much faster than the rest through use since you'll be casting Heal Wounds QUITE often throughout the game.

    Another neat trick I found---When you level up your magic user in the early game (when your realms stats are fairly low) **DON'T** pick a new spell just because you think you have to. Save your spell picks for when your Realm stats are higher and you have access to the high level spells. That way you'll have more high level devastating spells at your disposal. Since the majority of low-to-mid level spells (and a few high level spells, up to level 6 IIRC) can be learned through books anyways, there's no point in wasting your spell picks when you level up on them.

    A few recommendations on character creation and early spell picks--

    As for race, pick either a Faerie or an Elf. Faerie's have hellacious starting speed and Intelligence (2 of the primary attributes for an effective Bishop), natural AC bonus, innate magic resistance, and fast magic recovery. The tradeoff is that they have very low Piety and are severly limited in the Armor they can use. They also become encumbered very easily (since they have very low strength and a lower weight allowance than other classes) which effects their Armor Class and Initiative.

    Elven Bishops, on the other hand, can use a wide variety of weapons and armor, have equal Intelligence and Piety, decent Speed, and a little bit of innate magic resistance. The downside is that it takes a bit longer for them to build up their Intelligence (when compared to a Faerie Bishop) to 100 to gain access to the ever-important Power Casting special skill. In my party, I picked an Elven Bishop for both Role- Playing reasons and the ability to use better armor and higher Piety (higher Piety = more spell points).

    At character creation, pump as many points into Intelligence and Piety as you can, and the remaining on Speed.

    Pick the following 2 spells at first---Heal Wounds and Sleep. Heal Wounds will help build up the all- important Divine and Divinity Realms, as well as....well, keep everyone else alive. ^_^ Sleep helps disable your opponents and helps build up the not-so-used-but-still-kickass Air realm.

    Early on, you'll find a few Books. You can find one right off the bat that teaches you Light. ALWAYS cast Light. After every rest cast Light. Not only does it help to see in darkened areas, but it builds up the Fire Realm which is important, as your most effective offensive spells lay in the Fire Realm.

    Remember not to waste a spell pick on level up unless you ABSOLUTELY NEED IT! You can learn Energy Blast, Armorplate, Whirlwind, Chameleon, Frost, Iceball, etc. through books found throughout the game. And if you have a Rogue with high enough Pickpocketing, it makes it that much easier to obtain most of them ^_-. Early on, though, you'll want to learn Web, Insanity, Fireball, and Freeze Flesh. Once you've learned those spells, you don't really need any other ones for quite some time. Again, save your spell picks on level-up for when your Primary Realms are high enough to where you can have access to learning the higher level spells.

    One final note---As with all spellcasters, you're better off learning spells that help to disable or impare your opponents. Sleep, Web, Freeze Flesh, Blind, Insanity, etc are 10 times more powerful and effective than Fireball and Iceball ever will be. I mean, would you rather toss a Fireball into a swarm of enemies, doing a paltry 10-30 damage to each? Or toss out a Web spell, freezing the majority of the enemies in place while your fighter-types hack them to bits without taking so much as a scratch? Or better yet, casting Insanity and sit back and watch as the enemies beat the crap out of each other while you're characters play a game of Poker? ^_^

    Anyways, sorry for the loooooooong post. But if you follow my advice, you'll find Bishops to be one of the more powerful character classes in all of Wizardry 8, able to have access to every spell in the game. And as we know, there are some mighty powerful spells to be had.

    Hope you enjoyed my post. ^_^




    Gooter

    Great post and good idea about "spotlighting" a different class every so often. I do have one question though, you neglected to mention one of the bishop's skills, artifacts (their bonus skill). Do you feel it's not worth it for a bishop to work on this skill since they have so many spell realms to put their points into? What about if someone was depending on their bishop to be the main artifacts identifier? Would throwing a couple points into it be detrimental in the long run?

    Thanks!


    giroml

    Artifacts goes up insanely fast all by itself, just right click every object before you pick it up, helps to also have the Ranger who will find more hidden items on the ground thus enabling you to right click more items and gain more artifacts skill.


    AtlusSeven

    I KNEW I was forgeting something, Gooter. Thanks for the reminder.

    In my opinion, and pardon my french, but screw the Bishop's Artifacts skill. That's what Identify spell is for. ^_^ Not only is Identify superior (in that you can cast a high level Identify earlier than you can use your Artifact skill to ID an item), but you can gain points in Mental, Psionics, and Powercasting by using Identify.

    Thanks for the reply and the reminder. ^_^


    CoarseDragon

    Excellent!!!

    I also recommend casting Chameleon after every rest as this also helps to increase your Whipping Rocks, Armorplate and Armormelt spells from the Earth Realm (all of which I find useful).


    unravel

    Re: artifacts skill.

    My plan was also to neglect this skill in favor of using the identify spell. Imagine my surprise, after blowing some cash on resurrect scrolls, when I discovered I couldn't use the scrolls because no one had a artifacts skill of at least 35.

    I imagine my party out there in some god-forsaken pit, trying to raise a dead mage.

    "Can you read this?"

    "No...you can't?!"

    "Hell no, I bought them because I thought you could!"


    Groshnak

    One point one the race issue. For a bishop, regardless of race, INT, PIE, DEX, and SEN all start at 55, so an elf can actually get to 100 INT faster than a faerie can. Since the elf gets 30 bonus points to the faerie's 25, and you can only allocate 1/3 of your bonus points to any one stat, an elf can start with a max of 65 INT to the faerie's 63 and pick up Power Cast at level 13, while the faerie has to wait until 14. After reading your post, I've decided to give the bishop a go as my only caster, and I think I'll go with elf as well, even though the speed advantage of the faerie is awfully tempting.


    Taliseian

    Quick question....

    I don't have my manual with me ( on vacation, limited computer access so no gaming ), but isn't Piety important for Divine Spells while Int is for Wizardry spells....or am I thinking back to Wiz7 again...

    Thanks

    T


    AtlusSeven

    To lol_newbie--Powercast is a skill you learn once you attain 100 Intelligence. You can allocate points in it much like you would, say, Sword or Ranged Combat. Basically, the higher the skill is, the better your magic user is at getting through the enemy's resistances with his/her spells.

    In regards to having a Bard in your party reducing the effectiveness of your Bishop--I don't think this is the case. Granted, like you said, you might have less opportunity to use your Bishop's spells. This really shouldn't hurt you in the long run, though. Your Bishop will ALWAYS be casting spells and getting better, whereas your Bard will alternate between using instruments and his/her weapons.

    To Unravel--In regards to neglecting your Artifacts skill. Not really a problem. You'd be suprised how quickly your skill raises by simply IDing items that you can, using potions, reading books, etc. There's no reason to really allocate any points with any character in this skill. Besides, Resurrection Powders don't require any artifact skill and are very abundant.

    To Groshnack--Thanks for pointing that out about the Elven Bishop being able to max out his/her Intelligence faster than the Faerie Bishop. An oversight on my part. My appologies, and thanks again. ^_^

    To Lockridge and Bootackimus--Not sure if i'll be able to get around to doing all those classes anytime soon. Ideally, i'd like to tackle those classes that are either generally overlooked (Bishop, Rogue) or that I notice people are having difficulty using effectively (Ninja, Samurai, Monk). I'll most likely do my next Spotlight on the Monk, seeing as how they are one of my favorite classes (who doesn't like 12+ attacks per round, each with a chance of dealing a Critical Kill, coupled with insanely high AC? ^_^) I'll see what I can do, though, since the Fighter and Ranger are pretty much no-brainers, and the Lord and Mage wouldn't take much at all really to write up. Might I make a suggestion, though? Check out FleaBittenFox's most excellent post about magic users. He basically breaks down each and every magic user (except the Bishop) and lets you know which schools of magic are the best to use. You can find his wonderful post here--

    http://vnboards.ign.com/message.asp?...2795&replies=9

    To Taliseian--You are partially correct. Piety does affect your Divinity spells. It also grants you more Spell Points on level up. Intelligence, according to the in-game information in Wizardry 8 however, affects ALL schools of magic except the Divine realm. Both stats are vital to building up an effective Bishop.

    To Everyone--thanks a million for the kind words and encouragement. It makes me happy to know that my post didn't fall on deaf ears like I feared it might. Thanks again, and look forward to my Spotlight on Monks (or maybe Samurai or Rogue) very soon. ^_^


    Groshnak

    I've been following your advice and pumping 3 points per level up into Wizardy, Alchemy, and Psionics, and so far my bishop (level 7) is doing fine in those departments, but she's woefully lacking in Divinity. Casting Heal Wounds raises her Alchemy or Psionics skills, not divinity. The only things I've been able to cast to raise Divinity are Make Wounds and Bless (which I cast EVERY fight), and I only managed to get it up to 10 by the time I made level 7. I pumped 3 points into Div that level and 2 each on the others. I'm also going to do that at level 8 if she hasn't gotten it over 15 by that time, just so she can learn 2nd level spells. After I have a couple more Divinity-only spells, maybe things will start looking up. I have to say though, even with the lack of Divinity skill, she's STILL all the magic support I need.


    greenkiwi

    Two thoughts... do you have a high piety?

    Supposedly, casting a spell counts toward the spell book that you have the highest skill in. So if your Alchemy skill is 25 and your Divinity skill is 15, then casting heal, will help only your Alchemy skill.


    Groshnak

    Yeah, that's why it goes to either Alchemy or Psionics, not Divinity. I know *why* it's working that way, and I'm not really complaining, just pointing out my experience. Once I get the 2nd level spells I'll be able to do a lot more Divinity-specific casting, so it'll start to go up faster.

    Piety is fairly high as well, (71%). I started off at 65 and have been dumping one point per level into it, along with 2 in Spd and 3 in Int. Once I max Int I'll put 3 each in Pie and Spd, but that won't be for another 7 levels, I think.


    Hallfax

    Interesting points. Just because some of the part-time magic users have spell ability doesn't mean that you have to use them. That part about NOT chosing a minor spell & saving up for a later powerful spell is great!!

    The Critical hit is VERY important in battle (KOed that 400 hp monster in the first round, etc.), and the Ninja, Samurai, Valkyrie, & Monk still fight in general well.

    Besides, I have my Monk practice her Psionics in long range combat instead of using missle fire!


    AtlusSeven

    To Groshnak--About your problems with raising your Bishop's Divinity skill...

    Once you get to Arnika, head on over to some of the shops. You'll be able to purchase several books that give you Divinity spells. Remember to cast your Divinity spells LIBERALLY, since you won't be pumping many points into it (if any at all).

    Remember not to waste your spell picks on most of the lower-level spells. You'll find books for most of the good ones.

    As far as lower-level Divinity spells go, try to get Web as soon as you can. I don't recall there being a book for it, so you'll have to get it at level-up.

    Anyways, hope your having as much fun with your Bishop as I have. Mine only has 2 or 3 more realms left to max out, and her Powercasting just hit 97 earlier.

    IndyPendant

    *Bump*--and adding two points of my own. I'm busily playing through a party of 4 tanks, a bard, and a single 4-colour bishop, and it's working out fine.

    First though, forget elf; go Faerie all the way, easy. You lose only 1 point in Int and Piety overall at start; you gain *much* faster mana regen; and the fact that you lose the use of most weapons is completely irrelevant, since you'll be so busy casting multiple spells each fight, you simply won't have *time* to swing a weapon around! I don't even have her equipped with one.

    Also, be prepared to be disappointed with her for the first 8 or so levels. By level 7, with mine, I had less than 20 in the 'main' realms, and less than 10 in the 'secondary'. However, by level 12, I had reached around 70 in the main ones and 60 in the secondary. You begin to catch up *fast* around 8th level and higher. But it will be a struggle at the earlier levels, no question.

    Anyways, play what you want, and have fun!

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    Default Best races for Bishop

    More Bishop discussion from ye olden days...
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Bochser

    Date Posted: 12/18 10:10am Subject: RE: Best races for different classes

    The all around magic using Bishop. I think we'll all agree INT and PIE are the most important stats for the Bishop. The rest of the stats...I'm sure you'll disagree with me on

    INT, PIE, SPD, VIT, SEN

    The first two are obvious. The reason I chose SPD next was because it helps with AC which the Bishop will need due to their low HP, and Initative, which will help let the Bishop go first and cast his devastating spells before the monsters. VIT before SEN because VIT starts giving you more HP with each point you put into VIT, while SEN just helps the Bishop with Initative, with more VIT you'll have more health to surive against melee and magical attacks. The reason STR and DEX aren't on here is because they are almost useless for the Bishop. STR would help you do more damage when you attack but how often are you going to do that with your Bishop? Chances are very little and even if you did pump STR it wouldn't make that big of a difference. DEX just helps with to hit, attack rating, and more swings, again all pretty much useless because he'll be casting spells most of the time. When DEX is maxed out you'll get Reflextion but you'd have to wait until you have 100 DEX, then you'd have to wait until Reflextion gets a few points in it before you'll see any difference.

    Stats needed for Bishop: INT 55 PIE 55 DEX 55 SEN 55

    First field is race obviously, second is Bonus Points at creation, and third is the max number of points you can put into 2 stats and the last number is the max number of points you can place in a third stat.

    Human 20 7/6
    Elf 30 10
    Dwarf -10 0
    Gnome 25 9/7
    Hobbit 15 5
    Faerie 25 9/7
    Lizard -40 0
    Dracon -15 0
    Felpurr 10 4/2
    Rawulf 15 5
    Mook 5 2/1

    Stats before bonus points:

    INT PIE SPD VIT SEN
    Human 55 55 45 45 55
    Elf 55 55 45 35 55
    Dwarf 55 55 35 60 55
    Gnome 55 55 30 50 55
    Hobbit 55 55 50 45 55
    Faerie 55 55 60 30 55
    Lizard 55 55 50 70 55
    Dracon 55 55 40 60 55
    Felpurr 55 55 60 35 55
    Rawulf 55 55 40 50 55
    Mook 55 55 35 50 55

    Stats after bonus points:

    Human 62 62 51 45 55
    Elf 65 65 55 35 55
    Dwarf 55 55 35 60 55
    Gnome 64 64 37 50 55
    Hobbit 60 60 55 45 55
    Faerie 64 64 67 30 55
    Lizard 55 55 50 70 55
    Dracon 55 55 40 60 55
    Felpurr 59 59 62 35 55
    Rawulf 60 60 45 50 55
    Mook 57 57 36 50 55


    Exp level at which stat would max out:

    Human 14 14 30 32 45
    Elf 13 13 28 35 43
    Dwarf 17 17 38 31 46
    Gnome 13 13 34 30 45
    Hobbit 15 15 30 33 45
    Faerie 13 13 24 37 39
    Lizard 22 23 39 33 49
    Dracon 18 19 38 33 49
    Felpurr 15 15 28 37 43
    Rawulf 15 15 33 32 47
    Mook 16 16 37 32 47

    That would give us the Faerie at the top with the Elf behind by 4 levels.

    All Stats:
    Faerie
    Elf
    Felpurr
    Human
    Gnome
    Hobbit
    Dwarf
    Rawulf
    Mook
    Lizard
    Dracon

    Let's take a look at the Bishop stats without SEN.

    All except SEN:
    Human
    Hobbit
    Rawulf
    Gnome
    Elf
    Faerie
    Felpurr
    Mook
    Dwarf
    Dracon
    Lizardman

    That would give us the Human and yet again the Hobbit at the top two, with the Elf and Faerie in the middle.

    If having your Bishop with a lot of VIT and SEN isn't your fancy then it'd look like this.

    All except VIT and SEN:
    Faerie
    Elf
    Felpurr
    Human
    Hobbit
    Rawulf
    Gnome
    Mook
    Dwarf
    Dracon
    Lizardman

    Once again the Faerie comes out on top with the Elf in second. All in all I'd take the Faerie anyday although it can be a pain with their even stricter armor restrictions and low carrying capacity. However their faster spell point regeneration and natural 2 AC usually makes up for this.

    Like most of us already figured, the Faerie or Elf make the best Bishops. Although if you're going for an all hobbit party theme they wouldn't be too bad...


    IlleglWpns

    Actually for bishops I agree with you wholeheartedly. INT and PIE foremost, then SPD because initiative for spellcasters is paramount when you're facing powerful enemy casters.


    Shoujo

    Gotta disagree with the part on vitality. With a Bishop it's possible to be a master of 4 schools of magic. Alchemy requires dexterity, and Psionics require senses, so it makes more sense (no pun intended) to pump either dexterity or senses over vitality. I would go for senses because it influences the extremely useful Psionics school, and increases initiative.

    With high initiative you'll be able to cast spells like Guardian Angel, Element Shield, Soul Shield or crowd control spells before enemy spells start to fly.


    Bochser

    Trust me Shoujo I had a huge debate with myself over which is more important for a Bishop, SEN or VIT (I think I won the debate though! Even though my opponent was tough.)

    While it's true DEX helps raise the Alchemy skill and SEN helps raise the Psionics skill, the Bishop always starts with 55 in each stat. And since you'll be casting so many spells those skills will raise extremly fast all on their own. I haven't touched my Bishops SEN or DEX and on level 15 they are around 87 each. That's not too shabby considering the max is only 13 away. So other than helping to raise Alchemy faster DEX is pretty much useless, and considering Alchemy raises fast on it's own just through using spells it's not as important as other stats.

    When it comes to VIT vs SEN I broke it down like this. As I mentioned earlier SEN is always going to be 55, which would be .2 X 55 = 11 init. He'd be missing out on 45 X .2 = 9 init. Considering he'll have at least 20 init with max SPD and 55 SEN another 9 isn't going to help too much as compared to VIT for one main reason. That reason being that no matter how fast you get your guys there are some monsters out there that are just gonna go first, this is where keeping your Bishop alive would come in handy.

    Let's compare a Faerie Bishop with max VIT at level 25 and minimal SEN, and a Faerie Bishop with max SEN and minimal VIT at level 25.

    The SEN Bishop would have an extra 9 init with the 45 more SEN while the VIT Bishop would have an extra about 200 HP's with the 70 more VIT. This is still based on Karlmarxs post that each point in VIT gives .125 HP/level. While that seems to be pretty accurate for a lot of my characters it really breaks apart with my Fighters and my Faerie Bishop. Only thing I can think of is race plays a factor in it too. This extra health will help keep him alive from physical and magical attacks. Another thing to consider is if you manage to max out VIT you'll get Iron Skin, reducing the amount of physical damage he'll receive, and with max PIE he'll have Iron Will reducing the amount of magical damage he'll receive.


    Ivancito

    The thread inspired me to do some analysis of my own.

    According to your previous analysis, and taking into account only the relevant stats, the total number of stat points is:

    Fighter (STR+SPD+DEX+VIT+SEN+Bonus):
    Human 285
    Elf 265
    Dwarf 280
    Gnome 270
    Hobbit 300
    Faerie 270
    Lizard 310
    Dracon 295
    Felpurr 295
    Rawulf 280
    Mook 285

    Lizards are the way to go, but check out #2... Hobbits! Which confirms the previous analysis. Dracons suffer a penalty to divine and mental, and felpurr to water. I'd rather have a character paralyzed than insane. The breath thing of the Dracons is a non-issue for me, since it does not improve any skill when used

    Samurai (SPD+DEX+STR+SEN+VIT+Bonus):
    Human 275
    Elf 260
    Dwarf 255
    Gnome 270
    Hobbit 285
    Faerie 270
    Lizard 280
    Dracon 275
    Felpurr 280
    Rawulf 255
    Mook 280

    Hobbit Samurai is the way to go. Lizards turn out surprisingly good, but the penalties to Divine and Mental drop them a spot to 4th. Cats don't like water, so they drop to 3rd. Mooks stay on 2nd.

    Bishop (INT+PIE+SPD+VIT+SEN+Bonus):
    Human 275
    Elf 275
    Dwarf 250
    Gnome 270
    Hobbit 275
    Faerie 280
    Lizard 245
    Dracon 250
    Felpurr 270
    Rawulf 270
    Mook 255

    Faeries rule (doh!). Humans/Elves/Hobbits share 2nd place. Humans have no resists, so they'd drop to 3rd place in this case.

    Hobbits are back in Wiz8 with a vengeance. They're the most well-rounded race in the game, with above-average stats on everything. Whatever profession you choose, you can't go wrong with a Hobbit. I'll have to try a Hobbit Valkyrie!

    I never played Hobbits in other RPGs. It seems I'm going to have a 6-Hobbit party in Wiz 8, though

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