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    Newbie Budikah's Avatar
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    Default славная Родина - слон в комнате

    It'll unfold as it does - but what do you all take of this chirping about Russian interference in our elections? Still more whining? A legitimate cause for concern? Do we or do we not trust our own intelligence community to make non-partisan judgement and investigations?

    I had to go dig this video up that I saw years back and while I thought was interesting - didn't seem to directly apply to what was going on around me, at least not from my viewpoint at the time. This was years back. It seems a bit more relevant now.



    Being that I can't actually read or speak Russian, all I've got is this Wiki article that seems a bit startling close to the direction things are going on.

    Foundations of Geopolitics

    You think we're getting played by the old Adidas crew or is this just the violent thrashing of the establishment as God King Trump ascends to his throne?

    For what it's worth, I'm waiting for more information as time goes on - but I'm certainly in no position to argue against the US intelligence apparatus.

    NBC - Putin personally involved in US election hack
    Last edited by Budikah; 12-14-2016 at 08:31 PM.

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    Im still wondering what you guys think they hacked. The recount kind of showed the votes were legitimate... Wikileaks? Maybe... Just showed the coruption that surrounded her. The american people still decided the election. So what are we going after now?

    As far as the video is concerned with brainwashing generations, arent most teachers liberals? The kids in colleges now a days are a joke. Who is doing the brainwashing?
    Last edited by ByeByeMeow; 12-14-2016 at 10:24 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    Wikileaks? Maybe... Just showed the coruption that surrounded her. The american people still decided the election.
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelwind View Post
    As to the hacking... if the email release and other wikileaks style info was from foreign powers hacking then more power to them. I am never against the exposure of information like this. As long as the information is proven out it is all good.
    I'm sure you have the same attitude about how selective and structured to tell a certain story for the way mainstream media releases info, too.
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    Saw the title and came in here ready to feed this post to the spamomatic, lol.

    As to the hacking... if the email release and other wikileaks style info was from foreign powers hacking then more power to them. I am never against the exposure of information like this. As long as the information is proven out it is all good. Secret information is another matter but even then I think it is being over used and am starting to wonder. There was a time the primary purpose of it was to ensure the safety of our people in harms way or the security of our country as a whole. Now it is just an excuse to limit what people can say, scare off whistle blowers and hide the realty of what our government is doing to its citizens.

    As to the "hacking votes" angle it is pretty much impossible on the scale it would need to happen. There isn't enough of it being done on computers and it is so decentralized as to make it ineffective in my opinion.

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    http://townhall.com/columnists/edkle...ction-n2259827

    In Comey’s view, the leaks to the New York Times and the Washington Post alleging that the Russians tried—and perhaps even succeeded—in tilting the election to Trump were a Democratic Party effort to delegitimize Trump’s victory.
    Imagine if you were so corrupt that you used your grotesque power to become a presidential candidate and then your entire party crashed and burned because of how much of an evil, dishonest person you are.

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    Not sure I understand your response to my post. If you mean the same way about exposing them (the media) then yes.

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    julian assange said none of the podesta info or dnc info came from the russians. until hes caught in a lie i have no reason to not believe him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by positive View Post
    julian assange said none of the podesta info or dnc info came from the russians. until hes caught in a lie i have no reason to not believe him.
    Other than Wikileaks being caught excluding evidence of a huge money transfer from Syria to Russia in one of their leaks, and when it was exposed, he indirectly threatened the exposing newspaper for doing so, sure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by positive View Post
    julian assange said none of the podesta info or dnc info came from the russians. until hes caught in a lie i have no reason to not believe him.
    Other than Wikileaks being caught excluding evidence of a huge money transfer from Syria to Russia in one of their leaks, and when it was exposed, he indirectly threatened the exposing newspaper for doing so, sure.
    withholding info is par for lying?

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    Quote Originally Posted by positive View Post
    withholding info is par for lying?
    If the motivation is to hide it, yes? It's better known as "lie by withholding info omission".

    Edit: and to be clear, Assange said he didn't exclude any info. So while you can think lie by omission isn't dishonest I guess, it's unnecessary. He denies it was excluded. It was excluded. The end.
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    Quote Originally Posted by positive View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by positive View Post
    julian assange said none of the podesta info or dnc info came from the russians. until hes caught in a lie i have no reason to not believe him.
    Other than Wikileaks being caught excluding evidence of a huge money transfer from Syria to Russia in one of their leaks, and when it was exposed, he indirectly threatened the exposing newspaper for doing so, sure.
    withholding info is par for lying?
    You mean omitting not withholding but aside from that. It is. If not worse.

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    I mean the same way mainstream media crafts information for our consumption.
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    You mean wikileaks? I was talking in general but, in their case, how is posting batches of raw emails crafting information? If there is spin feel free to call it out. Same with any other media. Do you go do your own interviews and hack your own email servers or something? You must have a lot of free time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelwind View Post
    You mean wikileaks? I was talking in general but, in their case, how is posting batches of raw emails crafting information? If there is spin feel free to call it out. Same with any other media. Do you go do your own interviews and hack your own email servers or something? You must have a lot of free time.
    Because the investigation concluded they hacked the RNC as well, but chose not to release it? I'd consider selectively releasing info for damage is crafting information; do you not? Would it be better if I said they're crafting a message instead of information? Because that's a good description of how MSM is portrayed, too.

    I don't know why this is a partisan issue. Our political structure is unfortunately at a spot where shifting single-digit percentages in the final two weeks decides elections. It's a concern if any single (pseudo-apolitical) group can do that for their best interests, never mind doing it via illegal methods, never mind Russia being the perpetrator. You remember the big issue in NBC allegedly holding into Trump's "Grab 'em by the pussy" comment? Now imagine if that was a private tape stolen by a foreign power. More power to them?
    Last edited by Hep; 12-15-2016 at 01:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelwind View Post
    You mean wikileaks? I was talking in general but, in their case, how is posting batches of raw emails crafting information? If there is spin feel free to call it out. Same with any other media. Do you go do your own interviews and hack your own email servers or something? You must have a lot of free time.
    Because the investigation concluded they hacked the RNC as well, but chose not to release it? I'd consider selectively releasing info for damage is crafting information; do you not? Would it be better if I said they're crafting a message instead of information? Because that's a good description of how MSM is portrayed, too.

    I don't know why this is a partisan issue. Our political structure is unfortunately at a spot where shifting single-digit percentages in the final two weeks decides elections. It's a concern if any single (pseudo-apolitical) group can do that for their best interests, never mind doing it via illegal methods, never mind Russia being the perpetrator. You remember the big issue in NBC allegedly holding into Trump's "Grab 'em by the pussy" comment? Now imagine if that was a private tape stolen by a foreign power. More power to them?
    Did it stop being a big issue because it was NBC? Russia is known to be an adversary on the world stage. I mean it's not like people forgot the cold war. On the other hand NBC was supposed to be a reputable source of journalism. So you tell me which one is worse to pick sides? People knew Podesta didn't give his emails away just like they knew that Trump didn't give that tape to Billy Bush. The notion that it was hacked was never in dispute. This notion that it's all coming to light now is just partisan nonsense and other political bull$#@!.

    But seriously, aside from all of that nonsense. Who was actually flipped? I know that my vote would never have ever gone to Clinton even in 2008. I know that there are many people who would have voted for Hitler before Trump. I just don't believe the narrative that this stuff changed anything and nobody of any significance to my knowledge has suggested as much.

    and: I'd consider that the mainstream media selectively releases info for damage every single day and have been doing it for my entire lifetime and have gotten exponentially more lopsided about it in the last 15 years. I bitch about it all of the time. I welcome anyone to that train at all but you can't just cherry pick the times that it goes against your wants and stay aboard silently all the rest of the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steelwind View Post
    Again I was talking in general (wikileaks, Snowden, etc) but are you trying to say that not releasing both sides makes what they did release any less true or diminished the importance of what it included? I get that the way (timed batches) they released the information and that it was decidedly one sided is an issue but it is still information and I am all for more information.
    And again, that sounds like a very different picture from the one painted about the mainstream media.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Did it stop being a big issue because it was NBC? Russia is known to be an adversary on the world stage. I mean it's not like people forgot the cold war. On the other hand NBC was supposed to be a reputable source of journalism. So you tell me which one is worse to pick sides? People knew Podesta didn't give his emails away just like they knew that Trump didn't give that tape to Billy Bush. The notion that it was hacked was never in dispute. This notion that it's all coming to light now is just partisan nonsense and other political bull$#@!.
    Not the absence of an issue when NBC does it, but obviously not as severe. Not only are NBC's goals being different mostly a partisan instead of a literal different-state one, NBC's actions are a consequence of free press. All of our freedoms will be exploited in ways we don't want, but that doesn't diminish the importance of them. To take action against NBC is to take action against free press much of the time. That's a completely different scenario from taking against foreign power hacks.

    And yes, this would be a different conversation, if Putin and Clinton had meetings, and Putin released info on it a couple of weeks before the election.

    But seriously, aside from all of that nonsense. Who was actually flipped? I know that my vote would never have ever gone to Clinton even in 2008. I know that there are many people who would have voted for Hitler before Trump. I just don't believe the narrative that this stuff changed anything and nobody of any significance to my knowledge has suggested as much.
    Do you not believe anything about the polls? I'm not even talking about exact accuracy, but even the changes that happened? Both releases of info on Trump and Clinton caused greater amounts of change than the difference this election was decided by.

    and: I'd consider that the mainstream media selectively releases info for damage every single day and have been doing it for my entire lifetime and have gotten exponentially more lopsided about it in the last 15 years. I bitch about it all of the time. I welcome anyone to that train at all but you can't just cherry pick the times that it goes against your wants and stay aboard silently all the rest of the time.
    I've announced my concerns of selective media. I think you overexaggerate the issue, but I agree it's there. This isn't the crucial piece of concern for me, though. As I stated, there's not much action you can do without attacking freedom of the press there (beyond the people being skeptical). The issue here, is that a foreign power is hacking into our political parties in order to make a < 5% difference in voting habits, therefore changing who our President would otherwise be. That's not a partisan issue.

    The reality of the situation is, both of our major political parties probably have hack-available dirty laundry. Enough to change the result of our elections. That by no means suggests we need to change results. What it does mean, is actions like treating foreign powers that actually do that as hostile, and placing a higher priority for internet security.
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    Again I was talking in general (wikileaks, Snowden, etc) but are you trying to say that not releasing both sides makes what they did release any less true or diminished the importance of what it included? I get that the way (timed batches) they released the information and that it was decidedly one sided is an issue but it is still information and I am all for more information.

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    Not the absence of an issue when NBC does it, but obviously not as severe. Not only are NBC's goals being different mostly a partisan instead of a literal different-state one, NBC's actions are a consequence of free press. All of our freedoms will be exploited in ways we don't want, but that doesn't diminish the importance of them. To take action against NBC is to take action against free press much of the time. That's a completely different scenario from taking against foreign power hacks.
    Just a note about free press: NBC is actually among the least "free" of the free press. Because network TV is very directly regulated by the FCC they have the most reason to be complicit in govt. more or less in a crony capitalism way that I'd argue, very likely, impacts their politics. Newspapers, cable, and internet media outlets are considerably more "free". Not that it's anything remotely like a State-run system but I would add this little (*) to discussions about it.
    Do you not believe anything about the polls? I'm not even talking about exact accuracy, but even the changes that happened? Both releases of info on Trump and Clinton caused greater amounts of change than the difference this election was decided by.
    I guess I don't know what you mean by 'believe anything'. There are the numbers, those are pretty much just a matter of fact. I certainly don't dispute those. There are always questions about the interpretation starting with what the questions asked were, who they asked, how they were asked and so on. The day and it's surrounding events being sort of assumed to be the independent variable and the poll response being the dependent and the even more assumed implication that it affects behavior. But it's never that simple because of all of the issues about what, who and how. They end up being a question of opinion and outlook not action. Actually getting someone to do something is quite different than getting them to say how much they like the idea of something. Then there are a whole host of other things like how polls error in that they are self-reinforcing because people want to be on the popular side etc. Bottom line: It's complicated and I am very skeptical of polls changing the who someone was going to vote for in this election. I would say, if anything, that polls impact turnout. But that doesn't help the Clinton case because the way the polls read in that view should have helped her and hurt him. So again, not really convinced.

    Consider the polls regarding things like economic outlook. Those are pretty consistent polls and speak just to routine consumer outlook/activities and so are much more neutral. The results of those things change quite often without any corresponding change in behavior. The point being people do what they have to do to not necessarily what they'd like to.

    This election it was the penultimate 'I don't get to do what I want to do in terms of a voting choice' but many (including me frankly) felt it was my obligation to still vote.

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    Master of Knavery Ghoest9's Avatar
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    Mymain take is that the media(CNN) is being weaselly in how they descibe this.

    They keep referring to it as "election hacking" which when read literally, or obviously suggests that the voting machines were hacked.
    But what they are actually referring to is the hacking of politically damaging emails.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    I guess I don't know what you mean by 'believe anything'... It's complicated and I am very skeptical of polls changing the who someone was going to vote for in this election.
    Well, we're not really talking about polls changing votes. Rather, polls indicative of votes changing? Is that what you mean, though?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    I guess I don't know what you mean by 'believe anything'... It's complicated and I am very skeptical of polls changing the who someone was going to vote for in this election.
    Well, we're not really talking about polls changing votes. Rather, polls indicative of votes changing? Is that what you mean, though?
    Sure polls indicate opinions change but so what? Your claim was around that was that the emails made more a difference than the election spread. There's no way to know that.

    But let's just suppose and consider what it would be if there was no hacking/leaking of these emails and Clinton won. We'd have a president (and surrogates) who deceived and lied to the American public installed into the presidency (again) by a complicit media(hi Donna) that does not have any interest and makes no more than a token effort to "fact check" her stories and especially the collection of those stories into her narratives. During the campaign the Clinton team repeatedly said that the emails were 'baked in' and that they were't worried about it from the election pov. They also, and this is much more critical to someone like me, didn't dispute the content. They weren't ever saying these things were made up. And as much as she would sometimes "apologize" if she was caught with her hand in the cookie jar she was never even close to honest about it -which is the pattern of her entire career.

    So looking at it in totality, while the hacking is a big problem to deal with the election result to me is a better and just one. I'd rather know. I'd rather everyone else know. I think it's fair and reasonable to expect to not have corrupt politicians and when their corruption is exposed I'm, while not excusing hacking, I'm not opposed to having the information. Take Nixon, take Snowden. As a country I think it's quite clear that we would rather know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Sure polls indicate opinions change but so what? Your claim was around that was that the emails made more a difference than the election spread. There's no way to know that.
    Ok? Of course there's no way of knowing. That's the nature of a hypothetical. Shall I never take your concerns for the media distorting public opinion, since there's no way to know the alternative to that, either?

    So looking at it in totality, while the hacking is a big problem to deal with the election result to me is a better and just one. I'd rather know. I'd rather everyone else know. I think it's fair and reasonable to expect to not have corrupt politicians and when their corruption is exposed I'm, while not excusing hacking, I'm not opposed to having the information. Take Nixon, take Snowden. As a country I think it's quite clear that we would rather know.
    You seem to think my concern is that the "wrong" person won. It isn't. This is about foreign powers hacking our political parties for their gain. Whether or not you agree with the side effect of the "right" or "wrong" person winning isn't the focus. Furthermore, the scenario isn't simply whether or not we know more. That's looking at it in a vacuum. The scenario is, it's a fair assumption to say both major political parties have potentially-election-changing dirty laundry, and a foreign power is cherry picking which info they share in order to get the result they want.
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    Imagine if you were so corrupt that you used your grotesque power to become a presidential candidate and then your entire party crashed and burned because of how much of an evil, dishonest person you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kali- View Post
    I don't think any reasonable person is forgetting how much we interfere in other countries elections. Doesn't mean we should lie down and take it if it's happening to us.

    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    Im still wondering what you guys think they hacked. The recount kind of showed the votes were legitimate... Wikileaks? Maybe... Just showed the coruption that surrounded her. The american people still decided the election. So what are we going after now?

    As far as the video is concerned with brainwashing generations, arent most teachers liberals? The kids in colleges now a days are a joke. Who is doing the brainwashing?
    Email accounts, private servers containing documents, names, numbers, plans, etc. I'd say the "what are we going after" is the question of if our political parties are being manhandled by foreign players and to what extent they dug in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ghoest9 View Post
    Mymain take is that the media(CNN) is being weaselly in how they descibe this.

    They keep referring to it as "election hacking" which when read literally, or obviously suggests that the voting machines were hacked.
    But what they are actually referring to is the hacking of politically damaging emails.
    The media is retarded. I don't know what to tell you guys. Have they *ever* found a good way to do a technical story justice? These are suit dummies who sit and read scripts all day - they probably have the IT capabilities equal to peoples grandparents.

    I haven't seen any claims that the votes themselves were hacked, it's more about the selectivity of it and who it targetted. I did find something awhile ago stating that it is actually possible to hack the electronic voting machines even without needing direct access. I'd love to see that expanded on and explained, personally I think the entire voting system needs a bit of a change in between now and 2020 but I doubt that'll happen anytime soon.


    The Russian Expat Leading the Fight to Protect America
    IN A WAR AGAINST HACKERS, DMITRI ALPEROVITCH AND CROWDSTRIKE ARE OUR SPECIAL FORCES (AND PUTIN'S WORST NIGHTMARE)



    SecureWorks Assessment

    Threatconnect article on Fancybear

    Post election spearphishing campaigns

    I don't have all the answers, and even if all of the evidence was freely given - the media and general public couldn't understand it in the least. Our own politicians can barely understand it. So I go to the sources, the people with some know-how in the subject who work security. I'm not content to jump to any conclusions yet because I don't feel enough information is at hand.

    And ironically enough, given all that I've said on these forums - I don't exactly trust obvious Trump supporters to give two $#@!s and give an honest answer/assessment to the situation. Nor do I trust the GOP to investigate this with any seriousness and integrity - especially if those responsible withheld data from the RNC/GOP side to use as leverage afterwards. It's just the nature of the political football nowadays. If this was the goal for Russia, they knocked it out of the park. We will see in the time to come, that's for sure. I don't entirely expect allegations of this nature to fade out quietly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhaul View Post
    (pic clipped)
    I enjoy the implication of putting Clinton's connections to Arabic/Islam on a comparable level to Trump's connections with Russia. Since Clinton's connections weren't criticized by Trump or his supporters. I mean, how hypocritical would that be, if they're as comparable as your tweet pic shows?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Longhaul View Post
    (pic clipped)
    I enjoy the implication of putting Clinton's connections to Arabic/Islam on a comparable level to Trump's connections with Russia. Since Clinton's connections weren't criticized by Trump or his supporters. I mean, how hypocritical would that be, if they're as comparable as your tweet pic shows?
    Selective memory?
    Imagine if you were so corrupt that you used your grotesque power to become a presidential candidate and then your entire party crashed and burned because of how much of an evil, dishonest person you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhaul View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Longhaul View Post
    (pic clipped)
    I enjoy the implication of putting Clinton's connections to Arabic/Islam on a comparable level to Trump's connections with Russia. Since Clinton's connections weren't criticized by Trump or his supporters. I mean, how hypocritical would that be, if they're as comparable as your tweet pic shows?
    Selective memory?
    Even assuming it doesn't fit under the standard footnote that liberals must put on this forum, since not being explicit in opposing Clinton gets automatically upgraded to support, and further assuming "not criticizing" is the same as denying or actively defending connections as they are with Trump (spoiler alert! It's not), you still at best get equal ground. So still hypocritical, even if Clinton supporters are as well. Thanks for supporting my point I guess?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah
    Email accounts, private servers containing documents, names, numbers, plans, etc. I'd say the "what are we going after" is the question of if our political parties are being manhandled by foreign players and to what extent they dug in.
    It's of considerable interest to our govt. when private email servers of important US firms and/or former Sec. of State presidential nominees get breached but that's why they are private email servers. It was what 10 years ago that gmail was hacked by China? Did our govt. care? Yes. Did they freak out about it? No. Did our corrupt media make anything of it? Barely.

    So should we care that the DNC or RNC or so and so's campaign is hacked? Yes. But should it be the same hack hacking the DoD or State Dept. Not a chance in hell.

    And ironically enough, given all that I've said on these forums - I don't exactly trust obvious Trump supporters to give two $#@!s and give an honest answer/assessment to the situation. Nor do I trust the GOP to investigate this with any seriousness and integrity - especially if those responsible withheld data from the RNC/GOP side to use as leverage afterwards. It's just the nature of the political football nowadays. If this was the goal for Russia, they knocked it out of the park. We will see in the time to come, that's for sure. I don't entirely expect allegations of this nature to fade out quietly.
    I'm not exactly a Trump "supporter" or a GOP water boy so I can't exactly speak for that/those groups(s) but I definitely think the GOP cares as much about this as the Democrats do as an issue of Russian meddling/influence etc. But When the issue is framed as being about Trump or his election then obviously you aren't going to get support. It's disingenuous at best to suggest that you should even get it because Russian hacking has nothing to do with Trump unless it was Trump that got hacked. None of us know what the different protocols and systems each party, each candidate had in place but as much as all of that is their property it's on them to secure it. I mean $#@! you guys all went nuclear about some of Trump's decades old mail servers. Which ones of the anti-Trump people here are going to feel bad for him when those get hacked?

    There is for me anyway a somewhat sweet irony and poetic justice in Clinton supporters (that's different from Democrats just like Trump supporters vs Republicans) crying about email hacks right now because of how many of us kept going on and on about how illegal what she did was and how badly it compromised US Security and how much it really should have landed her in jail rather than as a nominee. I have heard for how many months.. years now that it was no big deal what she did and not to worry about it and blah blah blah. I wonder how many of them would have rather had their candidate talking about grabbing pussies now.

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    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...bb7_story.html

    It seemed to be dubious that folks were in agreement in the intelligence community, at the very least they've come to some consensus.

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    The scenario is, it's a fair assumption to say both major political parties have potentially-election-changing dirty laundry, and a foreign power is cherry picking which info they share in order to get the result they want.
    So what? Then we're back to NBC, NY Times, CNN etal. airing Trump/Republican 'dirty laundry' and not Hilary's/Democrats.

    The source is a secondary concern to the veracity don't you think?

    The campaign could easily push back against hacked/leaked info because virtually by definition the source is tainted. But they really didn't, maybe they couldn't figure out how without it making it worse for her. On the other hand you have major mainstream media outlets calling Trump a racist misogynist bigot on a daily basis. His ability to push back against that compared to hers against a 'free' press was much more limited. And yet he found a way.

    That this has been a story all week long is making me want Trump to get on his Twitter account frankly. I'm sick of it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post

    That this has been a story all week long is making me want Trump to get on his Twitter account frankly. I'm sick of it.


    This speaks volumes.

    You don't seem to care to be impartial. You don't seem to be able to consider differentiations in a given situation.

    Yeah, Clinton was $#@!. Yeah, the media is $#@! too - and they clearly play favorites. This isn't anything new - it's generally internal and domestic. Assuming it was unaltered, the information that came out with these leaks is good. We need insight into how $#@!ty our politicians act - but you can't just accept the narrative handed over by Wikileaks and (quite potentially) Uncle Vlad without considering what might exist on the other side of the aisle and why it wasn't targeted and released as well.

    ... but the door isn't swinging both ways. That is my issue, you don't seem to care because it affects the people you think down on. Nothing about Russia's attempts to create civil unrest and strife within our own borders seems a bit big to you? Nothing to consider or worry about?

    If in fairy tale land Clinton had won and upset Trump, and it turned out that the dirt that came up in GOP hacks came from Saudi Arabia and was an intentional and planned clandestine operation to cause civil unrest, distrust of our system, and to try and tilt the table towards one politician - would the tune be the same? You'd be off the $#@!ing wall, somebody else would start ranting about locking her up, treason, etc, etc. People will go on about donations to the Clinton foundation - but when it comes to Trump it's just more whining, nothing to worry about.

    It's been said before, and somebody else can probably say it better but the standards for both sides don't seem to be the same. Most of us who lean left on this forum (which is hardly left compared to what exists on the streets nowadays) have no issues about calling a turd a turd when we see it. The same doesn't exist on the other side from what I can tell aside from limited cases. Instead it just comes out as more whining, more conspiracy theories, more attempts to steal back the election. Everything is some secret liberal plot, and it isn't conceivable that some people might be concerned over Russian interference within our borders.

    The general level of paranoia and distrust by some people on the right has reached a point where there isn't much common ground to even have a basic discussion. It's the $#@! it, we won, $#@! you, $#@! your $#@!, $#@! whatever you might think because you thought it up - we don't trust you, we don't trust anything that doesn't agree with our notion of how things are way of operating. All media is biased, and I get the truth off of The Daily Caller and some dude on YouTube.

    The last part of your sentence "I'm sick of it" made me crack up.

    To end, because I'd feel remiss if I missed an opportunity...

    Second and more importantly. You're a $#@!ing idiot. Kill yourself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post

    That this has been a story all week long is making me want Trump to get on his Twitter account frankly. I'm sick of it.


    This speaks volumes.

    You don't seem to care to be impartial. You don't seem to be able to consider differentiations in a given situation.
    Impartial? Never said I was. Guess what you aren't either. And at the end of the day nobody is. So there's that.

    However I'm quite rational though and I'll put my ability to discern the truth from a situation up with anyone here.

    Yeah, Clinton was $#@!. Yeah, the media is $#@! too - and they clearly play favorites. This isn't anything new - it's generally internal and domestic. Assuming it was unaltered, the information that came out with these leaks is good. We need insight into how $#@!ty our politicians act - but you can't just accept the narrative handed over by Wikileaks and (quite potentially) Uncle Vlad without considering what might exist on the other side of the aisle and why it wasn't targeted and released as well.
    Absolutely. First of all simply by them choosing the what/when or the data is altered so the information gleaned is incomplete. I don't know anyone buying it wholesale but as you said the basic facts are good. Julian Assange is an anarchist. Vladimir Putin is a adversarial dictator. Taking what they say at face value would be pretty silly. Why is a great question.

    ... but the door isn't swinging both ways. That is my issue, you don't seem to care because it affects the people you think down on. Nothing about Russia's attempts to create civil unrest and strife within our own borders seems a bit big to you? Nothing to consider or worry about?

    If in fairy tale land Clinton had won and upset Trump, and it turned out that the dirt that came up in GOP hacks came from Saudi Arabia and was an intentional and planned clandestine operation to cause civil unrest, distrust of our system, and to try and tilt the table towards one politician - would the tune be the same? You'd be off the $#@!ing wall, somebody else would start ranting about locking her up, treason, etc, etc. People will go on about donations to the Clinton foundation - but when it comes to Trump it's just more whining, nothing to worry about.
    Both ways... A or B. We have an entire alphabet of closely related issues to worry about but if I care about C through Z that it doesn't matter because I didn't pick a side on A or B or more specifically that I chose A instead of B. Do you see how trite you sound to accuse someone of not caring about anything when you don't agree about 1 thing?

    Let me try to show you that I agree with some of what you said.
    It's been said before, and somebody else can probably say it better but the standards for both sides don't seem to be the same. Most of us who lean left on this forum (which is hardly left compared to what exists on the streets nowadays) have no issues about calling a turd a turd when we see it. The same doesn't exist on the other side from what I can tell aside from limited cases. For those who cannot Instead it just comes out as more whining, more conspiracy theories, more attempts to steal back the election. Everything is some secret liberal plot, and it isn't conceivable that some people might be concerned over Russian interference within our borders.

    The general level of paranoia and distrust by some people on the right has reached a point where there isn't much common ground to even have a basic discussion. It's the $#@! it, we won or should have won or deserved to win, $#@! you, $#@! your $#@!, $#@! whatever you might think because you thought it up - we don't trust you, we don't trust anything that doesn't agree with our notion of how things are way of operating. All media I don't agree with is false. and I get the truth off of The Daily Caller and some dude on YouTube.
    How's that? Enough common ground for a discussion?

    The last part of your sentence "I'm sick of it" made me crack up.
    As long as I get the laugh.

    To end, because I'd feel remiss if I missed an opportunity...

    Second and more importantly. You're a $#@!ing idiot. Kill yourself.
    That works better when you aren't making points because you can hope they really do it rather than leave you wondering if they can actually respond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    So what? Then we're back to NBC, NY Times, CNN etal. airing Trump/Republican 'dirty laundry' and not Hilary's/Democrats.

    The source is a secondary concern to the veracity don't you think?
    As I've stated before, this isn't about the veracity. I'm not questioning the legitimacy of the info. The issue at hand is our reaction to a foreign power hacking our political parties for their self interests. It's akin to asking whether or not I'm sad if due-process procedure isn't followed on a known murderer, but they're jailed anyway. No, I'm not sad they're behind bars. I don't like the precedent of complacency to issue-ridden methods used to obtain the result, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    So what? Then we're back to NBC, NY Times, CNN etal. airing Trump/Republican 'dirty laundry' and not Hilary's/Democrats.

    The source is a secondary concern to the veracity don't you think?
    As I've stated before, this isn't about the veracity. I'm not questioning the legitimacy of the info. The issue at hand is our reaction to a foreign power hacking our political parties for their self interests. It's akin to asking whether or not I'm sad if due-process procedure isn't followed on a known murderer, but they're jailed anyway. No, I'm not sad they're behind bars. I don't like the precedent of complacency to issue-ridden methods used to obtain the result, though.
    Sure. Who is "our' in "our reaction? Because I think the active?! response varies by position.

    In the case of Podesta (the one we know the most about) he was apparently the victim of a phishing scam. How many millions of times does that happen each day? He was operating in the private sector. So although most people wouldn't understand it but you will it actually wasn't a real hack of the server or system. It was like getting old people to give away their SSN and credit card number over the phone. How do you protect dumb people from themselves?

    In terms of the DNC I know less about the methods but go back and look at all the stories about china hacking gmail. Because that's what this equates to. How about when North Korea hacked Sony. To me that's what this is.

    It's very easy to agree that the responses to cyber terrorism?? crime?? warfare?? have been insufficient at best when you talk in the general cases where international lines have been crossed and citizens and companies have complaints. Having Russia and China not respecting intellectual property is costing us hundreds of billions of dollars annually.

    At the same time you have the Eric Schmidt's of the world saying things like: If you have something that you don't want anyone to know, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

    And you have the NSA performing man in the middle attacks on... well basically everyone.

    In other words: It's complicated.

    But I don't think anyone disagrees with the notion of "our reaction" needing to be improved but evangelizing this as a Trump(note that this the first mention of him) election issue is, quite possibly, literally the worst tactic possible. So bad that it's simply impossible to believe anyone with a brain and a real concern for the issue can be using his election as the symbol of hacking.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Sure. Who is "our' in "our reaction? Because I think the active?! response varies by position.
    The group referred to be when I say "our" reaction is the reaction of us, the people of the United States.

    In the case of Podesta (the one we know the most about) he was apparently the victim of a phishing scam. How many millions of times does that happen each day? He was operating in the private sector. So although most people wouldn't understand it but you will it actually wasn't a real hack of the server or system. It was like getting old people to give away their SSN and credit card number over the phone. How do you protect dumb people from themselves?
    Again, I wouldn't say the media is a non-issue, simply because people aren't doing their due diligence to verify the information they provide. In that scenario, though, I would say the primary course of action would be people in a position like Podesta requiring more diligence on their part.

    In terms of the DNC I know less about the methods but go back and look at all the stories about china hacking gmail. Because that's what this equates to. How about when North Korea hacked Sony. To me that's what this is.
    Hacking our two major political parties is a hostile action on our government. Would you feel the same, if they hacked the voting machines of the party primaries? You should, if you're equating the DNC to Sony. Or would you recognize it as interference in our voting process, not isolated to some private company's issue?

    But I don't think anyone disagrees with the notion of "our reaction" needing to be improved but evangelizing this as a Trump(note that this the first mention of him) election issue is, quite possibly, literally the worst tactic possible. So bad that it's simply impossible to believe anyone with a brain and a real concern for the issue can be using his election as the symbol of hacking.
    I'd say it's an example of influence via hacking, but more importantly, a symbol of how people don't care about that improvement when they get the results they want. Obviously, people who are giving the reaction I'm criticizing, don't agree with the notion of them needing to improve. As I was showing in my jail example, we (the US) have a section of people that are ok with that murderer being convicted without due process, simply because they're happy with the result of the murderer being convicted.
    I block all signatures. Feel free to ignore mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Hacking our two major political parties is a hostile action on our government. Would you feel the same, if they hacked the voting machines of the party primaries? You should, if you're equating the DNC to Sony. Or would you recognize it as interference in our voting process, not isolated to some private company's issue?
    I'll give you credit for an interesting example. I don't know who owns or regulates machines used in primaries. I believe it to be the case that primaries are conducted on a state by state basis and that each state can do more or less whatever they want. In theory they might not even need a machine and could do a voice vote or something. Since we're looking at tangible things what about the bombing of the headquarters/offices such as what happened in North Carolina. That happened. The Republican governor went on record saying it wouldn't get in the way of voting (oh and it seems like it lasted about 1 day in the news.) Is that "interference"? I don't think that you can say that what they did interfered with anyone going out and voting so no I wouldn't call it interference. If we start calling these other things interference then it's interference if a Putin takes out a full page ad in the NY Times to support Trump.

    I'd say it's an example of influence via hacking, but more importantly, a symbol of how people don't care about that improvement when they get the results they want. Obviously, people who are giving the reaction I'm criticizing, don't agree with the notion of them needing to improve. As I was showing in my jail example, we (the US) have a section of people that are ok with that murderer being convicted without due process, simply because they're happy with the result of the murderer being convicted.
    Yes I think I'd call it influence via hacking as well. That's a better term than "interference".

    The frustration about people not caring about how they got what they want when they get what they want is not new. Well maybe it's newer to the Hillary people. Even when I am on the losing side of the vote though I vastly prefer that to watching politicians do corrupt things and then pawn off responsibility to courts just so they can get people what they want.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    So what? Then we're back to NBC, NY Times, CNN etal. airing Trump/Republican 'dirty laundry' and not Hilary's/Democrats.

    The source is a secondary concern to the veracity don't you think?
    As I've stated before, this isn't about the veracity. I'm not questioning the legitimacy of the info. The issue at hand is our reaction to a foreign power hacking our political parties for their self interests. It's akin to asking whether or not I'm sad if due-process procedure isn't followed on a known murderer, but they're jailed anyway. No, I'm not sad they're behind bars. I don't like the precedent of complacency to issue-ridden methods used to obtain the result, though.
    all of the info was from wiki leaks? he {assange} has yet to be proven wrong i believe...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    That this has been a story all week long is making me want Trump to get on his Twitter account frankly. I'm sick of it.
    Such a delicate snowflake...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghoest9
    I think its clear that you should be allowed to carry weapons in the general public. It should be fine to restrict concealed carry as long as open carry is legal.

    This why its important to vote for Trump - even though hes a Giant Douche.

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    This is very funny. The U.S. government would never interfere in who became the leader of a foreign country. Obama should be slapped for saying anything. Something about glass houses and stones and all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah

    Apparently as of this moment grabbing pussies and potential pay to play schemes aren't on the disqualifying list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ysuro View Post
    This is very funny. The U.S. government would never interfere in who became the leader of a foreign country. Obama should be slapped for saying anything. Something about glass houses and stones and all.
    If you wanted to have an honest conversation about it - yeah, maybe we shouldn't interfere with the elections of other countries. Last time I checked, nobody asked Yusuro or Budikah if they were okay with it. This isn't exactly something we get to vote on, because it might not pass a popular vote. Even if we do act as monsters the world around - we shouldn't just shrug it off when it happens to us. Particularly when that somebody is one of our biggest oppositions and staunch ideological enemies for decades who has shown that they are willing to go distances to continue their geopolitical power grabs.

    And not in reply to Yusuro, but just in general...

    It's one thing to vote for the lesser of two evils, because that is the only reasonable chance most people have at aiming towards their ideological goals. It's another entirely when you become resistant and annoyed by criticism about that lesser evil that you become their de facto defender and cheerleader. To me, that is how you end up with fascism - you get so begrudged against the other party, against society, that you ultimately become fertile for somebody to play you like a fiddle for their own gain.

    ... and you can't claim to give a $#@! about the truth and then ask Trump to "go get on Twitter" - which is where he spews most of his garbage partial truths and outright lies from whenever he finds the time.

    If Trump actually stuck to his word, lost whatever $#@!ing speech impediment he seems to have, and spoke to actual truths instead of constantly playing businessman then I might have something positive to say about him. So far, he's just seemingly played his presidency as "The Art of the Deal" with the sucker being the American populace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah

    Apparently as of this moment grabbing pussies and potential pay to play schemes aren't on the disqualifying list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah View Post
    It'll unfold as it does - but what do you all take of this chirping about Russian interference in our elections? Still more whining? A legitimate cause for concern? Do we or do we not trust our own intelligence community to make non-partisan judgement and investigations?

    I had to go dig this video up that I saw years back and while I thought was interesting - didn't seem to directly apply to what was going on around me, at least not from my viewpoint at the time. This was years back. It seems a bit more relevant now.



    Being that I can't actually read or speak Russian, all I've got is this Wiki article that seems a bit startling close to the direction things are going on.

    Foundations of Geopolitics

    You think we're getting played by the old Adidas crew or is this just the violent thrashing of the establishment as God King Trump ascends to his throne?

    For what it's worth, I'm waiting for more information as time goes on - but I'm certainly in no position to argue against the US intelligence apparatus.

    NBC - Putin personally involved in US election hack
    Let's take a closer look at Israel , they control the disinformation apparatus and are masters at deflection and propaganda . Israel has been directing American policy for decades and I never voted for Israel , did you ?

    My guess is that Israeli operatives hacked the system and made it appear to be Russians , like they hacked into Irans nuclear program with Stuxnet , Americans were also involved .

    A merica can look back at all the times they installed regimes and dictators or despots against the will of the people in foreign lands causing misery and suffering , and the many times sanctions were imposed , killing millions of poor civilians . I actually hope Russia didget Trump elected , propaganda "racism" and White guilt got Obama elected , and that's even more insidious than any Russian influence .
    “The earth makes a sound as of sighs and the last drops fall from the emptied cloudless sky. A small boy, stretching out his hands and looking up at the blue sky, asked his mother how such a thing was possible. Fuck off, she said.”
    ― Samuel Beckett

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    I Am Fantastic Ability Hep's Avatar
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    More draining of the swamp: Leak reveals Rex Tillerson is director of Bahamas-based US-Russian oil company. I won't be too shocked if Trump supporters don't bother breaching this issue, but I admin, I'm curious as to whether it will be via delay (ignoring it), deny (MSM source = untrustworthy), or defend (he's just doing business, being against it is anti-capitalism).
    I block all signatures. Feel free to ignore mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    More draining of the swamp: Leak reveals Rex Tillerson is director of Bahamas-based US-Russian oil company. I won't be too shocked if Trump supporters don't bother breaching this issue, but I admin, I'm curious as to whether it will be via delay (ignoring it), deny (MSM source = untrustworthy), or defend (he's just doing business, being against it is anti-capitalism).
    Though there is nothing untoward about this directorship, it has not been reported before and is likely to raise fresh questions over Tillerson’s relationship with Russia ahead of a potentially stormy confirmation hearing by the US senate foreign relations committee.
    I don't understand what the issue is, especially as it pertains to Russia. Without more info I'd be more likely to just be bothered by the tax shelter.

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    Did anyone actually think Trump would really "drain the swamp"?
    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah

    Apparently as of this moment grabbing pussies and potential pay to play schemes aren't on the disqualifying list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ysuro View Post
    Did anyone actually think Trump would really "drain the swamp"?
    No, but it was a hope. For somebody who doesn't like him or his platform, it was one a few silver linings.

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    To each their own. My issue is the conflict of interests involving Russia, and whether or not being friendlier with them is simply because being diplomatic is the Trump administration's status quo (China for example), or if it's motivated to drop sanctions that explicitly blocked a multi-billion-dollar ExxonMobil deal to drill in Russia-owned areas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    To each their own. My issue is the conflict of interests involving Russia, and whether or not being friendlier with them is simply because being diplomatic is the Trump administration's status quo (China for example), or if it's motivated to drop sanctions that explicitly blocked a multi-billion-dollar ExxonMobil deal to drill in Russia-owned areas.
    It's not that I am in support of candidates with conflicts of interest I really haven't read/seen/heard enough to understand why this all falls that way.

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