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    Make America Great Again XeXy_SainT_'s Avatar
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    He is draining it according to the plan he released on his website during this election?
    anti-state•anti-war•pro-market

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    I don't know what 'drain the swamp' means then. I see most of his picks as being outside of the establishment. The one who gets the least blow back has been McConnell's wife which bugs me.

    But it's obviously one of those non-literal statements he's made where it could really mean anything so it's fair for people to say he's not doing it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    To each their own. My issue is the conflict of interests involving Russia, and whether or not being friendlier with them is simply because being diplomatic is the Trump administration's status quo (China for example), or if it's motivated to drop sanctions that explicitly blocked a multi-billion-dollar ExxonMobil deal to drill in Russia-owned areas.
    It's not that I am in support of candidates with conflicts of interest I really haven't read/seen/heard enough to understand why this all falls that way.

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    I Am Fantastic Ability Hep's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XeXy_SainT_ View Post
    He is draining it according to the plan he released on his website during this election?
    ie, not according to how it was used beforehand, but rather, a specific set of things on his web site that happen to coincide with his self-serving agenda, and not a general ideology of ridding government of corruption. Thanks, that's my point.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    It's not that I am in support of candidates with conflicts of interest I really haven't read/seen/heard enough to understand why this all falls that way.
    It's in the link you quoted me from. The tl;dr version is:

    • there's a ton of oil in the Arctic that Russia has but cannot get to because of the technological barriers.
    • ExxonMobil is at the forefront of combating those barriers, debatably the best at it.
    • ExxonMobil (with Tillerson at the helm) and Russia made a deal to drill, valued at hundreds of billions of dollars.
    • Russia invades liberates Crimea, getting sanctions put upon it.
    • Those sanctions canceled the deal, and added to Russia's financial woes.


    The denial du jour has been spent scoffing at the Trump-Tillerson-Russia connections from that situation, as if Tillerson isn't in bed with Russia. This doesn't exactly help those efforts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    It's not that I am in support of candidates with conflicts of interest I really haven't read/seen/heard enough to understand why this all falls that way.
    It's in the link you quoted me from. The tl;dr version is:

    • there's a ton of oil in the Arctic that Russia has but cannot get to because of the technological barriers.
    • ExxonMobil is at the forefront of combating those barriers, debatably the best at it.
    • ExxonMobil (with Tillerson at the helm) and Russia made a deal to drill, valued at hundreds of billions of dollars.
    • Russia invades liberates Crimea, getting sanctions put upon it.
    • Those sanctions canceled the deal, and added to Russia's financial woes.


    The denial du jour has been spent scoffing at the Trump-Tillerson-Russia connections from that situation, as if Tillerson isn't in bed with Russia. This doesn't exactly help those efforts.
    Hmm ok I thought it was about his directorship.

    Not that it would or could happen but it would be marvelously fascinating is if Tillerson was to get in and get Russia to concede something huge with Crimea then and then Exxon/Russia make a pile of money and even better would be if Tillerson had a gigantic financial windfall from it. Thanks, now I know what I want from international politics Christmas.

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    Impartial? Never said I was. Guess what you aren't either. And at the end of the day nobody is. So there's that.

    However I'm quite rational though and I'll put my ability to discern the truth from a situation up with anyone here.
    You aren't wrong - but you can at least make an attempt that looking at something from a middle of the road view.

    Absolutely. First of all simply by them choosing the what/when or the data is altered so the information gleaned is incomplete. I don't know anyone buying it wholesale but as you said the basic facts are good. Julian Assange is an anarchist. Vladimir Putin is a adversarial dictator. Taking what they say at face value would be pretty silly. Why is a great question.
    The worry is that down the road, they might perhaps have something over the GOP as well - and what it could be leveraged for.


    Both ways... A or B. We have an entire alphabet of closely related issues to worry about but if I care about C through Z that it doesn't matter because I didn't pick a side on A or B or more specifically that I chose A instead of B. Do you see how trite you sound to accuse someone of not caring about anything when you don't agree about 1 thing?

    Let me try to show you that I agree with some of what you said.

    <wall of text>

    How's that? Enough common ground for a discussion?
    Close enough.

    That works better when you aren't making points because you can hope they really do it rather than leave you wondering if they can actually respond.
    I'm batting at 0% when it comes to influencing suicides.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post

    Hmm ok I thought it was about his directorship.

    Not that it would or could happen but it would be marvelously fascinating is if Tillerson was to get in and get Russia to concede something huge with Crimea then and then Exxon/Russia make a pile of money and even better would be if Tillerson had a gigantic financial windfall from it. Thanks, now I know what I want from international politics Christmas.

    Can't tell if sarcasm or what.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post

    Hmm ok I thought it was about his directorship.

    Not that it would or could happen but it would be marvelously fascinating is if Tillerson was to get in and get Russia to concede something huge with Crimea then and then Exxon/Russia make a pile of money and even better would be if Tillerson had a gigantic financial windfall from it. Thanks, now I know what I want from international politics Christmas.

    Can't tell if sarcasm or what.
    Well there first part definitely wasn't. I had/have very little idea about what the issue with Tillerson is and I clicked his first link and was about him having some company that partners with Russia that he's a director. Nothing about geopolitics like Ukraine/Crimea etc.

    The second part isn't sarcasm but rather just my willingness to sit back and enjoy the show.

    Separately from all that my 2˘ on the Tillerson nominee:

    I honestly think that a successful prominent international businessman in a natural resources industry that is billed perennially as a national security issue and a global climate issue (as opposed to something like hamburgers or cars) is at least theoretically enough of a good enough thing to allow Trump to try it with for Sec. of State. What other qualifications would you look for? A career politician? That's been done enough times now for me to be less than impressed. An academic or other ideologue? I don't think those people are good. A military person? I get why it could happen but I don't think it's a good thing. So on paper Tillerson to me sounds like if not just a good pick one that I am quite willing to try. Other than vaguely waving their hands about Russia and making snarky remarks about friendships with Putin he seems not to be getting $#@! on. So he seems like a pretty solid guy. He did well at his company Exxon, and the other highest profile thing I have heard about is his Boy Scouts experience which the main result seems to have been them having to tolerate having gays in scouting. Hard for me to see liberal opposition to that! And he didn't have to do that and I don't see how he could have possibly lined his pockets for doing it.

    So while a number of Trump's picks are I think intentionally provocative like the EPA and Sessions for AG and others just are questionable like Carson or seem like swampy politics like McConnell's wife this is maybe the one I like the most at this point.

    And not saying you, but so many people organizations pundits even the parties themselves have gone down the never Trump. no matter what he does it's pure evil bandwagon with nothing of evidence but his record of talking like a New Yorker that it's just gone the way of Chicken Little on crack. I mean it's already nearly that way just about Republicans to begin with.

    So I'm not being sarcastic I'm just saying that until I know more, meaning see a real reason not to go along with Tillerson not just innuendo I'm gonna go along with him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Hmm ok I thought it was about his directorship.
    Well, not in that his directorship was part of the deal. Just that, with the state-run environment of the oil industry in Russia, it's more difficult for Tillerson and the Trump administration proxy to claim ignorance / no collusion / putting country's interests before their own, if he's a director for a Russian-based company.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    What other qualifications would you look for? A career politician? That's been done enough times now for me to be less than impressed. An academic or other ideologue? I don't think those people are good.
    I don't think it's an issue of his qualifications, at least what I'm harping on. It's that he's to be trusted to put the country's interests versus an adversarial state, when he's not only working for them by proxy (as I stated, any major oil company in Russia is at the very least entangled with its government), but probably stands to make billions by NOT doing that as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Hmm ok I thought it was about his directorship.
    Well, not in that his directorship was part of the deal. Just that, with the state-run environment of the oil industry in Russia, it's more difficult for Tillerson and the Trump administration proxy to claim ignorance / no collusion / putting country's interests before their own, if he's a director for a Russian-based company.
    Is he supposed to be able to keep being the director? I thought it was a given that he has to give up all that $#@!. And then that he probably knows where the bodies are buried so to speak for the Russians it ends up to me being a pretty strong position to negotiate from. Isn't that part of the larger point that Trump has made about globalization that international companies do put their interests ahead of country and that he's there to flip that by going out and getting people in there who know how that game is played instead of just trying to shame countries into being "good"?

    And not that it's remotely likely to happen but what would happen if the US/Russia became somehow huge partners in energy. What does that do to the middle east? Culturally I think we're closer to Russia than to Saudi Arabia or Iran. Maybe resetting all of that would be good for getting us out of the $#@! storm that is the middle east.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    What other qualifications would you look for? A career politician? That's been done enough times now for me to be less than impressed. An academic or other ideologue? I don't think those people are good.
    I don't think it's an issue of his qualifications, at least what I'm harping on. It's that he's to be trusted to put the country's interests versus an adversarial state, when he's not only working for them by proxy (as I stated, any major oil company in Russia is at the very least entangled with its government), but probably stands to make billions by NOT doing that as well.
    My part about him giving up his financial interests applies to that. I'm just assuming it's a given he has to be transparent about money etc. that he gets. I struggle to see him be able to sneak away with billions of dollars with the world watching and given his wealth I question it's that more money is that big of a deal for him.
    Last edited by Vyx; 12-19-2016 at 12:46 AM. Reason: combined responses

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Is he supposed to be able to keep being the director? I thought it was a given that he has to give up all that $#@!.
    For the most part, he has to give up all of his decision-making, but no, he doesn't have to give up all of his interests in ExxonMobil. Most of his stocks don't technically belong to him until after he would leave office. He's not obligated to give those up, although most taking positions as he does typically do. Furthermore, the point of running a company in the Bahamas, is to avoid US jurisdiction. We don't know what interests he owns in the company in question (the one he was acting director, not ExxonMobil). He's supposed to share that info, but if that happened, you wouldn't be running a company in the Bahamas.

    This applies to your edit as well.

    And then that he probably knows where the bodies are buried so to speak for the Russians it ends up to me being a pretty strong position to negotiate from. Isn't that part of the larger point that Trump has made about globalization that international companies do put their interests ahead of country and that he's there to flip that by going out and getting people in there who know how that game is played instead of just trying to shame countries into being "good"?
    The "good" you put in quotes can translate into following a country's interests. While you may disagree with sanctions, realize they're under the premise of being in the country's best interests.

    And not that it's remotely likely to happen but what would happen if the US/Russia became somehow huge partners in energy. What does that do to the middle east? Culturally I think we're closer to Russia than to Saudi Arabia or Iran. Maybe resetting all of that would be good for getting us out of the $#@! storm that is the middle east.
    The short of it is, it won't for a while, because of infrastructure issues. The Arctic oil wouldn't have been sold in the US. Not without those shame-country sanctions on the ME, at least.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Furthermore, it was heavily implied that people who didn't think he would, were making a judgment not based upon Trump's history of salesmanship insincerity, but rather, we were being biased simply because we didn't like Trump.
    Why did any of that matter?
    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah

    Apparently as of this moment grabbing pussies and potential pay to play schemes aren't on the disqualifying list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ysuro View Post
    Why did any of that matter?
    Because there's more than just this particular judgment being written off as bias? That perhaps the bias causing a difference from forecast to result is coming from the accusers?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ysuro View Post
    Why did any of that matter?
    Because there's more than just this particular judgment being written off as bias? That perhaps the bias causing a difference from forecast to result is coming from the accusers?
    Could be something to that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah

    Apparently as of this moment grabbing pussies and potential pay to play schemes aren't on the disqualifying list.

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    In an interview Gingrich had with NPR, after discussions with Trump:

    On Trump's often-stated promise to "drain the swamp" in Washington

    "I'm told he now just disclaims that. He now says it was cute, but he doesn't want to use it anymore."
    Which surprises no one. "Drain the swamp", like "I'm an anarchist": buzzworthy expressions until people they support are in power.
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    I don't know I think he can reasonably claim to be following through on it because it's such a nebulous thing he can get away with defining it as he sees fit so long as he can sell people on that. He's been active in trying to figure out ways to restrict the revolving door of politician <-> lobbying and his cabinet picks are vastly different from other traditional politicians.

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    Occasional rager Kat's Avatar
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    I always thought he was referring to lobbyists and donor class influencing decision makers.

    One of the first things he did was remove Christie as head of transition ..due to christie's choices of lobbyists?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    I don't know I think he can reasonably claim to be following through on it because it's such a nebulous thing he can get away with defining it as he sees fit so long as he can sell people on that. He's been active in trying to figure out ways to restrict the revolving door of politician <-> lobbying and his cabinet picks are vastly different from other traditional politicians.
    I think wanting to distance himself from it to the point of referring to it as "cute but don't want to use it anymore" is a reasonable claim he's not following through with it. But you're correct in that he could very well play the card of simply saying he's not a politician, therefore, he's accomplished his draining of the swamp, and still do all of the other things typically associated with the status quo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kat View Post
    I always thought he was referring to lobbyists and donor class influencing decision makers.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/us...president.html

    For donating $100k - $250k, you get "Two tickets to an "intimate policy discussion" over dinner with cabinet appointees."

    One of the first things he did was remove Christie as head of transition ..due to christie's choices of lobbyists?
    I'm guessing new allegations in the Bridgegate controversy happening immediately before he was dropped probably had something to do with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Kat View Post
    I always thought he was referring to lobbyists and donor class influencing decision makers.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/29/us...president.html

    For donating $100k - $250k, you get "Two tickets to an "intimate policy discussion" over dinner with cabinet appointees."

    One of the first things he did was remove Christie as head of transition ..due to christie's choices of lobbyists?
    I'm guessing new allegations in the Bridgegate controversy happening immediately before he was dropped probably had something to do with it.
    Christie is the moral equivalent to Canada's Rob Ford. It's a miracle people can still stand the dude.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    but rather, we were being biased simply because we didn't like Trump.
    It has played a bigger role than you are willing to admit.
    Imagine if you were so corrupt that you used your grotesque power to become a presidential candidate and then your entire party crashed and burned because of how much of an evil, dishonest person you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhaul View Post
    It has played a bigger role than you are willing to admit.
    You can call it a super duper yuge role for all I care. The fact remains, the quick death of the expression "drain the swamp" coincidentally after Trump winning the presidency was accurate. Despite those with a pro-Trump bias saying that the reason it was predicted was because of anti-Trump bias.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Longhaul View Post
    It has played a bigger role than you are willing to admit.
    You can call it a super duper yuge role for all I care. The fact remains, the quick death of the expression "drain the swamp" coincidentally after Trump winning the presidency was accurate. Despite those with a pro-Trump bias saying that the reason it was predicted was because of anti-Trump bias.
    Well when you compare the relative death's of "lock her up" and "build the wall" I still maintain that "drain the swamp" is at least on life support.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Well when you compare the relative death's of "lock her up" and "build the wall" I still maintain that "drain the swamp" is at least on life support.
    What campaign promises of approximate notoriety don't look more feasible than those two? I mean, I think we've agreed on Trump not exactly being concerned with lining up with the facts, yes? Because it seems like even he's not willing to defend the expression anymore. How far off base must a previously-held Trump stance be, than he's no longer willing to defend it? Trump criticisms that he won't rebuke isn't exactly a long list. This appears to be one of them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Well when you compare the relative death's of "lock her up" and "build the wall" I still maintain that "drain the swamp" is at least on life support.
    What campaign promises of approximate notoriety don't look more feasible than those two? I mean, I think we've agreed on Trump not exactly being concerned with lining up with the facts, yes? Because it seems like even he's not willing to defend the expression anymore. How far off base must a previously-held Trump stance be, than he's no longer willing to defend it? Trump criticisms that he won't rebuke isn't exactly a long list. This appears to be one of them.
    Some of his middle east ISIS stuff and his jobs/national debt stuff. I just don't think it has as good of catch phrases.

    I'd give it a 10%-20% chance that he'd seriously considering pre-emptively pardoning Clinton. He could totally spin that.

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    Disappointing.
    Hardly unexpected.

    Trump will do what the can to get and keep jobs in the US.

    He will try to build a wall of some sort on parts of the border where it will make a difference.

    He will at least be friendlier to gun ownership than Hillary.


    I have no faith that he will stick by any other position he took in the campaign.
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    Huehuehue.

    Russian leaders are publicly celebrating Obama's reelection. They can't wait to see how flexible Obama will be now.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonal...18875758645248

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah View Post
    Huehuehue.

    Russian leaders are publicly celebrating Obama's reelection. They can't wait to see how flexible Obama will be now.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonal...18875758645248
    @realDonaldTrump Well also because it’s better to deal with a guy who doesn’t want to restart the cold war.

    Thought this tweet was good

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    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah View Post
    Huehuehue.

    Russian leaders are publicly celebrating Obama's reelection. They can't wait to see how flexible Obama will be now.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonal...18875758645248
    they were celebrating because obama was their candidate and they had successfully hacked the election to get him in the white house

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    @realDonaldTrump Well also because it’s better to deal with a guy who doesn’t want to restart the cold war.

    Thought this tweet was good
    Sure you feel the same about this one.
    I block all signatures. Feel free to ignore mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    @realDonaldTrump Well also because it’s better to deal with a guy who doesn’t want to restart the cold war.

    Thought this tweet was good
    Sure you feel the same about this one.

    Ehh yeah that one was dumb but still better than Totalitarian leftists in charge

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    as someone who only reads the twitter quotes that get published by the news outlets when I click on those and see the responses/replies Trump looks downright... presidential.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    Ehh yeah that one was dumb but still better than Totalitarian leftists in charge
    A great example of how much your concern was actually about restarting the Cold War, instead of good ol' partisan "not the other guy" support.
    I block all signatures. Feel free to ignore mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    Ehh yeah that one was dumb but still better than Totalitarian leftists in charge
    A great example of how much your concern was actually about restarting the Cold War, instead of good ol' partisan "not the other guy" support.
    While disagree with his logic with what he proposes it wouldn't restart the cold war. I forsee better relations with Russia in the future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    While disagree with his logic with what he proposes it wouldn't restart the cold war. I forsee better relations with Russia in the future.
    You know that original tweet you're saying is good? That was Trump criticizing how close Obama was to Russia, not praising him. But you do realize the second most powerful nation in the world, someone militarily more capable than Russia to go against us in a cold war, is someone that Trump is provoking, right?
    I block all signatures. Feel free to ignore mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    @realDonaldTrump Well also because it’s better to deal with a guy who doesn’t want to restart the cold war.

    Thought this tweet was good
    Sure you feel the same about this one.

    Ehh yeah that one was dumb but still better than Totalitarian leftists in charge
    I think it is cute in a Death-star kinda way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah

    Apparently as of this moment grabbing pussies and potential pay to play schemes aren't on the disqualifying list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    While disagree with his logic with what he proposes it wouldn't restart the cold war. I forsee better relations with Russia in the future.
    You know that original tweet you're saying is good? That was Trump criticizing how close Obama was to Russia, not praising him. But you do realize the second most powerful nation in the world, someone militarily more capable than Russia to go against us in a cold war, is someone that Trump is provoking, right?
    Everyone thinks they are the good guy. I mean the whole reason for the death-star was to bring peace to the universe.
    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah

    Apparently as of this moment grabbing pussies and potential pay to play schemes aren't on the disqualifying list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hep View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    While disagree with his logic with what he proposes it wouldn't restart the cold war. I forsee better relations with Russia in the future.
    You know that original tweet you're saying is good? That was Trump criticizing how close Obama was to Russia, not praising him. But you do realize the second most powerful nation in the world, someone militarily more capable than Russia to go against us in a cold war, is someone that Trump is provoking, right?
    I realize that but a person tweeted him back what I posted to trump and found it Ironic.... So now that we have this tweet can we say hes not a Russian spy now? Lol

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    1) Nukes are "evil" so it is popular to not acknowledge them as one of the greatest peace keeping tools in the history of mankind.

    Our Minuteman missiles are pretty $#@!ing old. There was a scandal recently because crews had to Fedex a particular wrench from facility to facility.

    2) To me the Obama administration's relationship with Russia can be boiled down to 3 major events.

    -lying to Russia about the UN no fly zone in Libya so that they wouldn't veto it
    -trying to overthrow the leadership of Syria, a strategic ally of Russia, and all of the blowback that we have received in return
    -doing little to help Ukraine besides sanctioning Russia

    3) Rejoice, Trump's tweets about the F-35 are something I don't approve of.
    Imagine if you were so corrupt that you used your grotesque power to become a presidential candidate and then your entire party crashed and burned because of how much of an evil, dishonest person you are.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    I realize that but a person tweeted him back what I posted to trump and found it Ironic.... So now that we have this tweet can we say hes not a Russian spy now? Lol
    "now". Gotta justify liberal hate somehow, I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhaul View Post
    Our Minuteman missiles are pretty $#@!ing old. There was a scandal recently because crews had to Fedex a particular wrench from facility to facility.
    "Expand" equates to "refresh / maintain" only when trying to justify it.
    I block all signatures. Feel free to ignore mine.

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    If they don't agree with our idea of peace then we can just bomb them until they do. I mean we are "right" after all.

    As long as we are bombing them in the name of peace we are peaceful?
    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah

    Apparently as of this moment grabbing pussies and potential pay to play schemes aren't on the disqualifying list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ysuro View Post
    If they don't agree with our idea of peace then we can just bomb them until they do. I mean we are "right" after all.

    As long as we are bombing them in the name of peace we are peaceful?
    We have always been the bully of the world, I'm not saying this is a good thing but everyone in America thinks we are the "good guys", not even close...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ysuro View Post
    If they don't agree with our idea of peace then we can just bomb them until they do. I mean we are "right" after all.

    As long as we are bombing them in the name of peace we are peaceful?
    We have always been the bully of the world, I'm not saying this is a good thing but everyone in America thinks we are the "good guys", not even close...
    Well they should at least be grateful we are bombing them into peace.
    Quote Originally Posted by Budikah

    Apparently as of this moment grabbing pussies and potential pay to play schemes aren't on the disqualifying list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ysuro View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ByeByeMeow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ysuro View Post
    If they don't agree with our idea of peace then we can just bomb them until they do. I mean we are "right" after all.

    As long as we are bombing them in the name of peace we are peaceful?
    We have always been the bully of the world, I'm not saying this is a good thing but everyone in America thinks we are the "good guys", not even close...
    Well they should at least be grateful we are bombing them into peace.
    Ikr! Ungrateful Bastards

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    https://www.wordfence.com/blog/2017/...tion-hack-faq/

    On Friday we published an analysis of the FBI and DHS Grizzly Steppe report. The report was widely seen as proof that Russian intelligence operatives hacked the US 2016 election. We showed that the PHP malware in the report is old, freely available from a Ukrainian hacker group and is an administrative tool for hackers.

    We also performed an analysis on the IP addresses included in the report and showed that they originate from 61 countries and 389 different organizations with no clear attribution to Russia.
    Does the report prove that Russia Hacked the 2016 US Election?

    No it does not. What Wordfence revealed on Friday is that the PHP malware sample that the US government provided is:

    -An old version of malware. The sample was version 3.1.0 and the current version is 3.1.7 with 4.1.1 beta also available.
    -Freely available to anyone who wants it.
    -The authors claim they are Ukrainian, not Russian.
    -The malware is an administrative tool used by hackers to upload files, view files on a hacked website, download database contents and so on. It is used as one step in a series of steps that would occur during an attack.

    Wordfence also analyzed the IP addresses available and demonstrated that they are in 61 countries, belong to over 380 organizations and many of those organizations are well known website hosting providers from where many attacks originate. There is nothing in the IP data that points to Russia specifically.
    If I find something in the DHS/FBI report on my website or network, does it mean that Russia hacked me?

    No it does not.

    This has caused serious confusion already among press and US policy makers. A Vermont electrical utility found a sample of what is in the DHS/FBI Grizzly Steppe report on a single laptop. That laptop was not connected to the Electric Grid network. It was reported as Russia hacking the US electrical grid.
    Where is this being written about in main-stream news?

    Here is a list of news coverage as of Sunday night at 11:15PM Pacific Time:

    -White House fails to make case that Russian hackers tampered with election. – Ars Technica
    -FBI and Homeland Security detail Russian hacking campaign in new report – The Guardian
    -Grizzly Misstep: Security Experts Call Russia Hacking Report “Poorly Done,” “Fatally Flawed” – Fortune.com
    -Something About This Russia Story Stinks. – Rolling Stone
    "Supposing Word Fence's analysis is correct and the electronic forensic data so far collected gives no indication that the Russians were behind the hacking of the DNC computer systems, and that President Obama is in possession of no additional information to which the public is not privy, then did the president of the USA just expel all of Russia's diplomats and levy sanctions for no real reason?"
    Imagine if you were so corrupt that you used your grotesque power to become a presidential candidate and then your entire party crashed and burned because of how much of an evil, dishonest person you are.

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    I ended up doing more reading out of curiosity... I think I concur with this statement from this ArsTechnica article on the subject.

    The doubts raised by Lee, Graham, and Carr underscore the difficulty members of the US intelligence community face when taking findings out of the highly secretive channels they normally populate and putting them into the public domain. Indeed, the Joint Analysis Report makes no mention of the Democratic party or even the Democratic National Committee. The lack of specifics and vagueness about exactly how the DHS and FBI have determined Russian involvement in the hacks leaves the report sounding more like innuendo than a carefully crafted indictment.

    The intelligence community has found itself in this position before, including in attributing a highly destructive attack on Sony Pictures Entertainment in 2014 to North Korea. In fairness, the reticence in both cases is likely justified by the interest in protecting sources and methods used to detect such attacks. And as Lee was quick to note, strong technical evidence is likely to be included in reports to Congress that later may be declassified. Still, it's hard to escape the conclusion that Thursday's Joint Analysis Report provides almost no new evidence to support the Obama Administration's claims Russia attempted to interfere with the US electoral process. Absent something more, the increasingly bitter debate may rage on indefinitely.
    After the election, for me, I see two things...

    - The Democrats would leverage something like this even if not entirely true.
    - The Republicans would condemn the validity of any of this even if it was at least partially true.

    Which leaves me with the above bold sentence - none of us are going to be given any foolproof idea. It isn't likely that we are going to see the irrefutable smoking gun anytime soon. People don't want to give up their means and methods in the intelligence community and let on how much or how little they know of the opposition agents, methods, etc. Both political parties lie, both have good reason to lie to cover their asses here, and the intel community certainly isn't going to be gung-ho about even hinting at the extent of their knowledge/capabilities which leaves us with accusations, denials, political plays via Obama, and no smoking gun to be had - be it for legitimate or nefarious reasons (ie: it doesn't exist).

    That said, I'll venture that many countries have hackers, and those hackers are not directly tied into the government in official capacities. Maybe it sounds like some InfoWars conspiracy $#@!, but it makes the most sense to me. Ask yourself what you would do if you worked for a government and were in charge of cyber warfare - I'd want to least official links possible to the people in my employ.

    We'll all just have to wait and see for the time being. It's also an amusing note that almost all of the writings on this I could find including the one you linked @Longhaul are all companies seemingly trying to use this as some marketing airtime in the spotlight. They include good information otherwise, but these firms might be getting some nice increase in business for their analysis on these modern tech matters.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhaul View Post
    1) Nukes are "evil" so it is popular to not acknowledge them as one of the greatest peace keeping tools in the history of mankind.

    Our Minuteman missiles are pretty $#@!ing old. There was a scandal recently because crews had to Fedex a particular wrench from facility to facility.

    2) To me the Obama administration's relationship with Russia can be boiled down to 3 major events.

    -lying to Russia about the UN no fly zone in Libya so that they wouldn't veto it
    -trying to overthrow the leadership of Syria, a strategic ally of Russia, and all of the blowback that we have received in return
    -doing little to help Ukraine besides sanctioning Russia

    3) Rejoice, Trump's tweets about the F-35 are something I don't approve of.
    I'd add crimea into that list.

    Obama has been an unmitigated disaster on foreign policy.

    What's his biggest achievement? That Fidel got old and died?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Longhaul View Post
    "Supposing Word Fence's analysis is correct and the electronic forensic data so far collected gives no indication that the Russians were behind the hacking of the DNC computer systems, and that President Obama is in possession of no additional information to which the public is not privy, then did the president of the USA just expel all of Russia's diplomats and levy sanctions for no real reason?"
    How well is that supposition faring now?
    I block all signatures. Feel free to ignore mine.

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