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Thread: Caster vs Tank in DAoC (and clip range?)

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    Default Caster vs Tank in DAoC (and clip range?)

    I will propose this theory. DAoC currently is more balanced towards caster than tank. They have range, good damage, and often their own forms of baseline and spec CC added to the quickcast ability that allows them to escape pressure from melee long enough to re-establish good position. They (mostly) have stat debuffs, which with the advent of power mythirians, the infernal sleeves, a myriad of /use MCL2 abilities, and increased stack size of power pots, are actually usable nearly every time they are off cooldown (which is, for most spec stat debuffers, 5 seconds I believe). Casters can cross-debuff damage, making a spec nuker and a debuff nuker a prime dynamic in a groups' ability to spike DPS onto an enemy target. And if you're still slow to the dynamics of PvP games, spike damage is what kills people. Casters, due to the power giving items which were added to the game, are no longer required to spec for MCL or RP. They can go full damage passives if they so desire. Essentially, casters need MAYBE some aug dex (saracen and lurikeen casters definitely do not need much, if any, aug dex to hit their dex breakpoints) to have their potential realized; everything past that point can be spent on damage which will only make them more potent. Casters do not have to spec for power-giving abilities like MCL or RP. DPS casters likely forgo Physical Defense in favor of damage increasing RA's. To be competitive in RvR, a caster needs little more than purge1, LW1, enough aug dex to hit their breakpoint, and then can begin stacking damage passives.

    Now, look at this from a tank perspective. Tanks and light tanks of any kind are very much NOT RvR ready out of the box at 50. They have to spend points in Det9 just to be able to avoid uselessness due to CC. They have to spend points in charge, simply to catch their target most times. Once they have spent points to max their charge and Det, they still have to worry about caster damage (which, once resist debuffed, is actually really frickin' high), so they temp things like magic resist charges from dragon rings or add points to AoM and Tough to increase their survivability. What this results in, is tanks which spend most of their RA points on survivability and CC dampening abilities, whereas casters can charge full ahead and dump 90% of every RA point earned into raw damage. After all of this, in the current balance of DAoC, tanks end up being little more than glorified interrupt bots for the amount of time they can hit their target before being destroyed or peeled off.

    Aside from what I have listed above, I believe this issue is created by the patch that increased the clip range in which people were able to see enemy targets from beyond normal spell casting range. This patch, in essence, gave casters the ability to split apart, drop speedwarps, and gain ground before an enemy group was able to so much as throw down insta-CC. There is little way to catch a wary caster on incoming and force him into the ground before he can become an issue. I understand that this may be a cutthroat view on the caster vs tank balance situation, but it's one that needs to be examined somewhat. Casters, IMO, currently have way too much in their favor, and clip range in its current inception is one of them. They are able to notice a fight before it happens, get in good position before either group can really actually do anything to the other, and on top of this their characters only get better with RA points, whereas tanks only start to become "viable" after dumping a large amount of points into Det9 and Charge (if available).

    I'd like to see some means of forcing casters to spend points into RA's other than damage passives (MCL and RP are pretty much never seen in a standard caster RA template at this point), or something done to help the tanks actually engage the enemy group before they are whittled away to uselessness through death or stat debuffs. And yes, ideally I'd like to see the clip range reduced somewhat; the game was designed around the old clip range, and having the inability to do anything to an enemy group at first sight makes the head on incoming moment a little bit less tense and more of a stand off until someone makes a mistake.
    Omholt, 50 Minstrel

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    You know what sucks? A savage and zerker charged going straight for you. Their goal? See who can get the kill shot on you, as they both know that you're speed warped and will not be able to defend against it. To your flank you see a valk charged for $#@!s and giggles, knowing that you will die you attempt to qc a utility spell. Zerk bane spikes, vendos, savage lands the perfect quad and the valk hits you with the low damage ranged insta dd for the kill(valk probably plays support in LoL)

    So, yeah, ranged is op, damn valks.

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    Yeah... unles someone grapples, zephyr, Theurg RR5, menta RR5, BG, pre kite (yes, this was once the horrible norm for casters) the tank.
    I don't mind casters doing more damage, should be so. I mind casters having waaaay to many tools themselves, or in the group, to nulify tanks.

    You have to remember, casters can "insta" redirect their assist, tanks have to move from their target to the new one, which gives healers time to target and start healing.

    I would hate to go back to all tank groups, but would be a fresh breath if it wasn't 90% caster (with 1 tank) groups who ran.
    "When I die it's due to; being zerged, added, some cheat/hack, or fighting OP class." Anonymous DaoC player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Druth View Post
    Yeah... unles someone grapples, zephyr, Theurg RR5, menta RR5, BG, pre kite (yes, this was once the horrible norm for casters) the tank.
    I don't mind casters doing more damage, should be so. I mind casters having waaaay to many tools themselves, or in the group, to nulify tanks.

    You have to remember, casters can "insta" redirect their assist, tanks have to move from their target to the new one, which gives healers time to target and start healing.

    I would hate to go back to all tank groups, but would be a fresh breath if it wasn't 90% caster (with 1 tank) groups who ran.
    You forgot Zo /2, haste debuffs, PBT
    Omholt, 50 Minstrel

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    @OP, have you ever played a caster? cause from what you wrote it would seem the answer is no.

    play one, try it out. You'll find that the grass isn't always greener. Make it Hib or Alb so you know what its like to have a charge vendo'd zerk / savage on you.

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    Wow, it's been a while since I've seen one of these threads - is it 2006 again? Where's the "Dark Age of Castalot" in your post??? Tank groups have always been easier than extension caster groups - if anything I'd think this thread would be about tanks considering how easy it is to win fights as a push group now that there isn't a dominant alb guild around anymore, but I guess most Euro guilds have weird set ups and IRC pugs most often turn out to be hybrid or full caster.

    Something tells me you haven't played the game for very long if you're a det/stoi/charge tank and the best things about those things is being able to not afk and to be able to catch your target - or you just don't understand the concept of being able to be a virtually permanently CC immune behemoth that can 2-3 round you that you can't run from.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheesecake View Post
    Wow, it's been a while since I've seen one of these threads - is it 2006 again? Where's the "Dark Age of Castalot" in your post??? Tank groups have always been easier than extension caster groups - if anything I'd think this thread would be about tanks considering how easy it is to win fights as a push group now that there isn't a dominant alb guild around anymore, but I guess most Euro guilds have weird set ups and IRC pugs most often turn out to be hybrid or full caster.

    Something tells me you haven't played the game for very long if you're a det/stoi/charge tank and the best things about those things is being able to not afk and to be able to catch your target - or you just don't understand the concept of being able to be a virtually permanently CC immune behemoth that can 2-3 round you that you can't run from.
    Sound pissed
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    Total and complete ignorance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheesecake View Post
    Wow, it's been a while since I've seen one of these threads - is it 2006 again? Where's the "Dark Age of Castalot" in your post??? Tank groups have always been easier than extension caster groups - if anything I'd think this thread would be about tanks considering how easy it is to win fights as a push group now that there isn't a dominant alb guild around anymore, but I guess most Euro guilds have weird set ups and IRC pugs most often turn out to be hybrid or full caster.
    Tank groups are as easy to play as full caster groups. The difference is that a full caster group will do good in NF, can do good on the isle except versus full tank groups, may participate in keep attacks/defence. Tank groups are pretty good on the isle but aren't worth much anywhere else: it takes too long to kill, even with those episodes where a caster dies in 2 rounds of a vendo'ed zerker. Keeps, towers and bridges are a definite no-no since the suppression of ladders, and you have to deal with super annoying lag exploit tactics from casters in 8v8, whereas a caster mostly doesn't (except the infamous QC run-through).

    Mostly tank groups on the isle in euro prime time btw, with a few hybrid groups left. I personally find full caster( retreat, retreat, retreat, CC, nuke assist) and full tank (to each their own mage) setups boring, as do the people i play with.

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    even more than the players it's mostly location. look how successful tanks are in places like laby where casters are so successful on walls of keeps and such.

    there is often too much adv/disadv simply by fighting in a certain area for some setups to overcome vs another.

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    wait a second

    tanks and melee have an advantage over casters in laby?

    no $#@!ing way

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    Casters are extremely powerful in this game, and with the exception of a short time after SI was released, always have been.
    Tanks are extremely powerful in this game, and with the exception of the short time before the introduction of RAs (and mid & alb receiving end redurance songs/chants), always have been.

    A balanced group with the right leader trumps pure caster or pure tank groups. You adjust tactics according to not only what you're running but who you're fighting as well and what happens in the fight. A pure caster group can't handle certain setups. A pure tank group can't handle certain setups. A well balanced group can handle any setup. I'll never forget when loop groups became so immensely popular that all three realms started doing it. People started running more and more caster DPS to "optimize" their setup, but that was a mistake. When Recoil played on Devon, we made a balanced mid group that was able to handle pretty much every type of opponent. We only played there as a regular guild group (and not a set 8, but close) for a couple of months, but because of our flexibility and our leader's (Slavor for the lancelot peeps here) ability to correctly diagnose what we needed to do and communicate it to us, we not only held our own against the realm rank 9-11 groups (the highest of our group was r7 or r8 something by the time we quit playing, most were r6), we regularly beat them. It wasn't because we were all superior players. We weren't. We had mostly above average players, a few good players and one great player (Slavor).

    When we varied from that 2 caster, 2 tank group setup, however, it became exponentially harder for us as our tactics were much different against the variety of groups that existed at the time. The balanced group could easily loop & pull when it needed to but also could push and push hard when it needed to. The same held true on our albs: the balanced group of 2h pally, merc, sorc, tri-cab, pet-theurg, 2xCleric & Minst could handle anything thrown at it better than the pure caster setups we ran most of the time (not because it was optimal, it was what was available). Our most difficult fights from both realms came against groups that were also well-balanced, as they could respond in-kind to what we were doing. Granted, this is from a time period well before ywain existed, but if 8v8 with a bunch of guilds running a set 8 was still a thing in an open field, I think you'd find much of the same. Change the setting to the lab or keeps and it becomes a different story. Change the player setups to pugs or mostly pugs, and it becomes a different story. Throw in adds or surfers or whatever, and again, a different story. Throw those things out the window and now there are too many variables to even really compare.
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    Quote Originally Posted by elogateumsato View Post
    @OP, have you ever played a caster? cause from what you wrote it would seem the answer is no.

    play one, try it out. You'll find that the grass isn't always greener. Make it Hib or Alb so you know what its like to have a charge vendo'd zerk / savage on you.
    I have, and I actually play caster better than I play tank or support.
    Omholt, 50 Minstrel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashmir View Post
    Casters are extremely powerful in this game, and with the exception of a short time after SI was released, always have been.
    Tanks are extremely powerful in this game, and with the exception of the short time before the introduction of RAs (and mid & alb receiving end redurance songs/chants), always have been.

    A balanced group with the right leader trumps pure caster or pure tank groups. You adjust tactics according to not only what you're running but who you're fighting as well and what happens in the fight. A pure caster group can't handle certain setups. A pure tank group can't handle certain setups. A well balanced group can handle any setup. I'll never forget when loop groups became so immensely popular that all three realms started doing it. People started running more and more caster DPS to "optimize" their setup, but that was a mistake. When Recoil played on Devon, we made a balanced mid group that was able to handle pretty much every type of opponent. We only played there as a regular guild group (and not a set 8, but close) for a couple of months, but because of our flexibility and our leader's (Slavor for the lancelot peeps here) ability to correctly diagnose what we needed to do and communicate it to us, we not only held our own against the realm rank 9-11 groups (the highest of our group was r7 or r8 something by the time we quit playing, most were r6), we regularly beat them. It wasn't because we were all superior players. We weren't. We had mostly above average players, a few good players and one great player (Slavor).

    When we varied from that 2 caster, 2 tank group setup, however, it became exponentially harder for us as our tactics were much different against the variety of groups that existed at the time. The balanced group could easily loop & pull when it needed to but also could push and push hard when it needed to. The same held true on our albs: the balanced group of 2h pally, merc, sorc, tri-cab, pet-theurg, 2xCleric & Minst could handle anything thrown at it better than the pure caster setups we ran most of the time (not because it was optimal, it was what was available). Our most difficult fights from both realms came against groups that were also well-balanced, as they could respond in-kind to what we were doing. Granted, this is from a time period well before ywain existed, but if 8v8 with a bunch of guilds running a set 8 was still a thing in an open field, I think you'd find much of the same. Change the setting to the lab or keeps and it becomes a different story. Change the player setups to pugs or mostly pugs, and it becomes a different story. Throw in adds or surfers or whatever, and again, a different story. Throw those things out the window and now there are too many variables to even really compare.
    This is kind of what I'm seeing. It's much easier to run PUGs from IRC (and that's all there are any more, really) with 1 set type vs another set type. I'd like some kind of parity to make it a little bit simpler to run hybrid and truly be able to adjust to what is happening. But as it is, I see tank classes as the downfall of such thinking. It is far easier to neutralize a tank in today's game than it is to neutralize a caster. Also, I think my point still stands that a tank class has to spend much more of it's RA points in abilities that simply make it viable to play in a group whereas casters can just get more powerful by investing in damage passives.
    Omholt, 50 Minstrel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    even more than the players it's mostly location. look how successful tanks are in places like laby where casters are so successful on walls of keeps and such.

    there is often too much adv/disadv simply by fighting in a certain area for some setups to overcome vs another.
    I don't consider laby a real RvR location, even if realm points are awarded for killing people there.
    Omholt, 50 Minstrel

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    Quote Originally Posted by Omholt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashmir View Post
    Casters are extremely powerful in this game, and with the exception of a short time after SI was released, always have been.
    Tanks are extremely powerful in this game, and with the exception of the short time before the introduction of RAs (and mid & alb receiving end redurance songs/chants), always have been.

    A balanced group with the right leader trumps pure caster or pure tank groups. You adjust tactics according to not only what you're running but who you're fighting as well and what happens in the fight. A pure caster group can't handle certain setups. A pure tank group can't handle certain setups. A well balanced group can handle any setup. I'll never forget when loop groups became so immensely popular that all three realms started doing it. People started running more and more caster DPS to "optimize" their setup, but that was a mistake. When Recoil played on Devon, we made a balanced mid group that was able to handle pretty much every type of opponent. We only played there as a regular guild group (and not a set 8, but close) for a couple of months, but because of our flexibility and our leader's (Slavor for the lancelot peeps here) ability to correctly diagnose what we needed to do and communicate it to us, we not only held our own against the realm rank 9-11 groups (the highest of our group was r7 or r8 something by the time we quit playing, most were r6), we regularly beat them. It wasn't because we were all superior players. We weren't. We had mostly above average players, a few good players and one great player (Slavor).

    When we varied from that 2 caster, 2 tank group setup, however, it became exponentially harder for us as our tactics were much different against the variety of groups that existed at the time. The balanced group could easily loop & pull when it needed to but also could push and push hard when it needed to. The same held true on our albs: the balanced group of 2h pally, merc, sorc, tri-cab, pet-theurg, 2xCleric & Minst could handle anything thrown at it better than the pure caster setups we ran most of the time (not because it was optimal, it was what was available). Our most difficult fights from both realms came against groups that were also well-balanced, as they could respond in-kind to what we were doing. Granted, this is from a time period well before ywain existed, but if 8v8 with a bunch of guilds running a set 8 was still a thing in an open field, I think you'd find much of the same. Change the setting to the lab or keeps and it becomes a different story. Change the player setups to pugs or mostly pugs, and it becomes a different story. Throw in adds or surfers or whatever, and again, a different story. Throw those things out the window and now there are too many variables to even really compare.
    This is kind of what I'm seeing. It's much easier to run PUGs from IRC (and that's all there are any more, really) with 1 set type vs another set type. I'd like some kind of parity to make it a little bit simpler to run hybrid and truly be able to adjust to what is happening. But as it is, I see tank classes as the downfall of such thinking. It is far easier to neutralize a tank in today's game than it is to neutralize a caster. Also, I think my point still stands that a tank class has to spend much more of it's RA points in abilities that simply make it viable to play in a group whereas casters can just get more powerful by investing in damage passives.
    I agree and disagree strongly with some of your points (at the same time on the same points).

    I wholeheartedly agree that a low realm rank caster is more powerful than a low realm rank tank (when taken out of a controlled environment - in a controlled environment, the low realm rank tank won't be low realm rank long at all).

    I wholeheartedly disagree that it's easier to neutralize a caster than a tank. Maybe it's just because Shamans, Healers, Skalds, Minstrels, Theurgs, Sorcs, Cabbies, Clerics, Druids, Mentalists, Enchanters and Bards all just don't know how to play... I doubt that, though I did come across a "recent" rvr video on youtube that was recommended to me prior to my reactivation where I never once saw the sorcerer (his PoV) sick his pet on anything, even a wide-open-right-next-to-him Druid. Kinda blew my mind.

    It's everyone's job to be on interrupt duty. For some classes, their primary role isn't interrupt, but if they aren't doing their primary role, often their secondary role should be. Cleric has nobody to heal? Cleric should be working on his position while panning and looking for someone to shear (same story with druid, who has a pet to aid in his interrupting and can even root things). A caster with no good nukeable target who is not running for their lives or peeling off a group mate should use a long range spell to interrupt someone so that their tanks and/or primary interrupt options can take back over in that role and the caster can get back to doing what it's supposed to do (all while continuously working on positioning). Bracer of Zo used to be a standard in all gear sets for at least half of the group and banelord used to have 3 abilities that interrupted (and charge tanks all almost always had BL as an option, so it's not like they can really be kited unless extremely good positioning by the caster occurs, which, as I've seen thus far, is not really an issue in today's game). Those are timered options, but they are options. A mezzed tank can be cured. A rooted tank can purge and can still pull out some form of ranged attack (shortbow, champ level spells) to interrupt until being able to do dps again. A stunned tank won't be stunned long.

    A mezzed caster likely is a dead caster because it interrupts their positioning, the number one thing a caster needs to master to reach the ultimate success. Same with a rooted caster.

    The number one way to neutralize anyone is to kill them. Casters are (or were) called squishies for a reason. Tanks invariably have more hit points, better armor with more absorb, and, used to, could stack defense easier than a caster. In today's game where everyone can have capped everything, the difference is not as much as it used to be. None the less, a caster mezzed or rooted for more than 5 seconds likely won't contribute anything to the fight because it will die in less than 3 seconds the moment the other group realizes this. A tank in the same scenario will be able to survive all but a massive assist from all of the DPS, which WON'T happen because it's been temporarily neutralized (unless, of course, the tank is over extended which is another can of worms entirely).

    In a group that's functioning properly, it's equally difficult to shut down a caster of any realm rank and a low realm rank tank. A high realm rank tank is much more difficult to shut down. And in a game that's 12 years old where rr10 & 11 are the norm, it's not really fair to compare low realm rank tanks to high realm rank anythings. If anything, it's a disparity between realm rank and not class.

    Ultimately, it's a difficult discussion because of the things I brought up before: Pugs, locations & uneven numbers. Because of these variables, I do agree with you in that casters are stronger than tanks. I can join a pug on any of my casters and have no doubt that I will contribute a large amount of dps as well as support. I haven't even specced my tanks since I re-upped because... wait for it... they are all really low realm rank, and I know that it will take more effort than I care to spend to get them in shape to be good in pugs, so I log on the caster(s) that I know will drop a metric $#@! ton of damage on anybody and whose utility I'm confident in my competence to use in the appropriate circumstance. I was in some pug the other night where the group seemed amazed that I used nearsight so much and to such great effect. I'm like GD nearsight used to be the most overpowered bull$#@! in the game. Even if someone is immune, it's a long-range interrupt that I can cast in less than a second! I can do that when I'm not in position to blow up some tank who was wise enough to not overextend (and it's not yet time for me to push up - proper positioning), buying my tanks a chance to push in hard, disrupting the enemy casters & support, allowing my support to push in and continue that disruption, sending their tanks into panic mode and not working together in an appropriate manner to take care of the immediate threat, allowing me to step right in at the perfect moment and clean it up.

    So yeah, in the environment we have, casters are a little more powerful than tanks, but not so much that it's so terribly imbalanced that we have the old Dark Age of Castalot.

    Give me two groups of set 8 that play together 5-nights a week for a month and pit them against one another and then we'll do a much more detailed breakdown of balance (ie that won't happen). Until then, enjoy the game for what it is: a really old game that still has the best PvP of any mmo by a mile (or 1.6 kilometers for you people rocking the metric system).
    Last edited by Ashmir; 05-06-2013 at 01:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashmir View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Omholt View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashmir View Post
    Casters are extremely powerful in this game, and with the exception of a short time after SI was released, always have been.
    Tanks are extremely powerful in this game, and with the exception of the short time before the introduction of RAs (and mid & alb receiving end redurance songs/chants), always have been.

    A balanced group with the right leader trumps pure caster or pure tank groups. You adjust tactics according to not only what you're running but who you're fighting as well and what happens in the fight. A pure caster group can't handle certain setups. A pure tank group can't handle certain setups. A well balanced group can handle any setup. I'll never forget when loop groups became so immensely popular that all three realms started doing it. People started running more and more caster DPS to "optimize" their setup, but that was a mistake. When Recoil played on Devon, we made a balanced mid group that was able to handle pretty much every type of opponent. We only played there as a regular guild group (and not a set 8, but close) for a couple of months, but because of our flexibility and our leader's (Slavor for the lancelot peeps here) ability to correctly diagnose what we needed to do and communicate it to us, we not only held our own against the realm rank 9-11 groups (the highest of our group was r7 or r8 something by the time we quit playing, most were r6), we regularly beat them. It wasn't because we were all superior players. We weren't. We had mostly above average players, a few good players and one great player (Slavor).

    When we varied from that 2 caster, 2 tank group setup, however, it became exponentially harder for us as our tactics were much different against the variety of groups that existed at the time. The balanced group could easily loop & pull when it needed to but also could push and push hard when it needed to. The same held true on our albs: the balanced group of 2h pally, merc, sorc, tri-cab, pet-theurg, 2xCleric & Minst could handle anything thrown at it better than the pure caster setups we ran most of the time (not because it was optimal, it was what was available). Our most difficult fights from both realms came against groups that were also well-balanced, as they could respond in-kind to what we were doing. Granted, this is from a time period well before ywain existed, but if 8v8 with a bunch of guilds running a set 8 was still a thing in an open field, I think you'd find much of the same. Change the setting to the lab or keeps and it becomes a different story. Change the player setups to pugs or mostly pugs, and it becomes a different story. Throw in adds or surfers or whatever, and again, a different story. Throw those things out the window and now there are too many variables to even really compare.
    This is kind of what I'm seeing. It's much easier to run PUGs from IRC (and that's all there are any more, really) with 1 set type vs another set type. I'd like some kind of parity to make it a little bit simpler to run hybrid and truly be able to adjust to what is happening. But as it is, I see tank classes as the downfall of such thinking. It is far easier to neutralize a tank in today's game than it is to neutralize a caster. Also, I think my point still stands that a tank class has to spend much more of it's RA points in abilities that simply make it viable to play in a group whereas casters can just get more powerful by investing in damage passives.
    I agree and disagree strongly with some of your points (at the same time on the same points).

    I wholeheartedly agree that a low realm rank caster is more powerful than a low realm rank tank (when taken out of a controlled environment - in a controlled environment, the low realm rank tank won't be low realm rank long at all).

    I wholeheartedly disagree that it's easier to neutralize a caster than a tank. Maybe it's just because Shamans, Healers, Skalds, Minstrels, Theurgs, Sorcs, Cabbies, Clerics, Druids, Mentalists, Enchanters and Bards all just don't know how to play... I doubt that, though I did come across a "recent" rvr video on youtube that was recommended to me prior to my reactivation where I never once saw the sorcerer (his PoV) sick his pet on anything, even a wide-open-right-next-to-him Druid. Kinda blew my mind.

    It's everyone's job to be on interrupt duty. For some classes, their primary role isn't interrupt, but if they aren't doing their primary role, often their secondary role should be. Cleric has nobody to heal? Cleric should be working on his position while panning and looking for someone to shear (same story with druid, who has a pet to aid in his interrupting and can even root things). A caster with no good nukeable target who is not running for their lives or peeling off a group mate should use a long range spell to interrupt someone so that their tanks and/or primary interrupt options can take back over in that role and the caster can get back to doing what it's supposed to do (all while continuously working on positioning). Bracer of Zo used to be a standard in all gear sets for at least half of the group and banelord used to have 3 abilities that interrupted (and charge tanks all almost always had BL as an option, so it's not like they can really be kited unless extremely good positioning by the caster occurs, which, as I've seen thus far, is not really an issue in today's game). Those are timered options, but they are options. A mezzed tank can be cured. A rooted tank can purge and can still pull out some form of ranged attack (shortbow, champ level spells) to interrupt until being able to do dps again. A stunned tank won't be stunned long.

    A mezzed caster likely is a dead caster because it interrupts their positioning, the number one thing a caster needs to master to reach the ultimate success. Same with a rooted caster.

    In a group that's functioning properly, it's equally difficult to shut down a caster of any realm rank and a low realm rank tank. A high realm rank tank is much more difficult to shut down. And in a game that's 12 years old where rr10 & 11 are the norm, it's not really fair to compare low realm rank tanks to high realm rank anythings. If anything, it's a disparity between realm rank and not class.

    Ultimately, it's a difficult discussion because of the things I brought up before: Pugs, locations & uneven numbers. Give me two groups of set 8 that play together 5-nights a week for a month and pit them against one another and then we'll do a much more detailed breakdown of balance. Until then, enjoy the game for what it is: a really old game that still has the best PvP of any mmo by a long, long shot.
    I agree with a good number of these things but this; a mezzed caster is not necessarily dead unless he was mezzed out of position to begin with (remember when my OP said clip range is too high? it's rare to catch someone that far out of position if they're actually paying attention). Root immune tanks is a rarity since most prefer melee snares which don't set immunity over casted roots which do. Since the style revamp, you don't even need a tank to peel a tank. A minstrel can snare peel just as well as an armsman.

    As for neutralizing, a tank is more in contact with stat debuffs, which make their ability to deal consistant damage really, really bad. In a lot of cases, they will hit PBT and haste debuffs as well, which means good luck even LANDING a hit, let alone making it count for anything. On top of this there is the /zo2 for fumbling, a myriad of RR5 abilities and other class abilities that make hurting a caster difficult. Hence why I said in most cases tanks become glorified interrupt bots. No real threat to anyone, but hey at least they're not casting. Note, when I say neutralizing I don't mean making it completely irrelevant, I mean putting it in a point where it's not going to bring down a player every 3-5 seconds like a decent ranked resist debuff caster can.
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    I don't have time to read the whole thread or post much more at the moment, but tanks also have to worry about casters easily circle strafing them, making them further useless.

    Combine that with debuffs (especially d/q, on top of str and str/con, which makes them hit for less and takes quite a bit of HPs away), pbt, haste debuffs, disease, Zo2, and like I said, circling strafing. It's one of the most frustrating things ever. Regardless of your thoughts on circle strafing (going to take a line from cheesecake, you're a dumb euro if you don't take advantage of it), it exists in the game, and we'd be dumb euros to ignore it's presence.

    That being said, there are ways tanks can run through quickcasts and some spells during moc, but you literally have to be right on top of a target. The fact that I can be on a Zerker (what most consider a high DPS tank), have some theurg laugh at me while continuing to Conc/MoC out pets with no threat of dying (due to his own haste debuff/pbt and his sorc friends d/q debuff + a little circling possibly) as I'm trying to take his penis away from him isn't very fun.

    It gets miles worse on any tank using a 2 hander.

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    L2P ?

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    I generally agree with the poster. But some of those changes just aren't going to happen. The game isn't going to revert back to the way it used to be. Especially regarding power usage. I remember running out of power easily before ToA. And after ToA one support class would usually try and drop a power font in the fight. MCL and RP were often used. I had to run MCL2 on my sorc for several years on classic. Before myths and 50% power charges. Now infernals.

    Then again tanks ran out of endurance easier as well without endo reduction buffs and styles costing more endo.

    The det9 argument is valid IMO. Melee classes are forced to get det9 because of the way combat in the game is designed. Heavy focus on CC and lengthy CC. Casters really aren't forced to invest in much besides purge1-2. And hybrid melee generally have to invest in purge as well as det9. Charge tanks need det9 and charge5 (RR7L4). You can get by with less, but it is ideal to max them out. I don't know if forcing casters to invest in RA's is the right idea. There have been suggestions to help tanks. I'd like to see silence /use brought back. Another option is just giving all melee stoicism. Maybe increasing the effectiveness of stoicism.
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    While it's not as much as det9 casters have to spend in aug dex first. Depending on the race that can be a only a little or a lot.

    The caster vs. tank argument to me is pretty much nonsense. I do find that hybrids are the ones that suffer. Det9+Stocism tanks win. Tanks with tricks like charge win. Tanks with uber magic defense win. Hybrids having none of that are usually left out. So to me the problem with Det9/Stocism/Charge etc. isn't between Caster and Tank it's between Tank and Hybrid Tank. It's why Reavers and Champs and (melee if they exist) thanes and such have trouble getting anything but very specialized groups. But absent debuff trains casters are in as bad of a situation as any hybrid tank unless they are unique like sorcs (primary cc) or theurgs (primary interrupt)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashmir View Post
    Casters are extremely powerful in this game, and with the exception of a short time after SI was released, always have been.
    Tanks are extremely powerful in this game, and with the exception of the short time before the introduction of RAs (and mid & alb receiving end redurance songs/chants), always have been.

    A balanced group with the right leader trumps pure caster or pure tank groups. You adjust tactics according to not only what you're running but who you're fighting as well and what happens in the fight. A pure caster group can't handle certain setups. A pure tank group can't handle certain setups. A well balanced group can handle any setup. I'll never forget when loop groups became so immensely popular that all three realms started doing it. People started running more and more caster DPS to "optimize" their setup, but that was a mistake. When Recoil played on Devon, we made a balanced mid group that was able to handle pretty much every type of opponent. We only played there as a regular guild group (and not a set 8, but close) for a couple of months, but because of our flexibility and our leader's (Slavor for the lancelot peeps here) ability to correctly diagnose what we needed to do and communicate it to us, we not only held our own against the realm rank 9-11 groups (the highest of our group was r7 or r8 something by the time we quit playing, most were r6), we regularly beat them. It wasn't because we were all superior players. We weren't. We had mostly above average players, a few good players and one great player (Slavor).

    When we varied from that 2 caster, 2 tank group setup, however, it became exponentially harder for us as our tactics were much different against the variety of groups that existed at the time. The balanced group could easily loop & pull when it needed to but also could push and push hard when it needed to. The same held true on our albs: the balanced group of 2h pally, merc, sorc, tri-cab, pet-theurg, 2xCleric & Minst could handle anything thrown at it better than the pure caster setups we ran most of the time (not because it was optimal, it was what was available). Our most difficult fights from both realms came against groups that were also well-balanced, as they could respond in-kind to what we were doing. Granted, this is from a time period well before ywain existed, but if 8v8 with a bunch of guilds running a set 8 was still a thing in an open field, I think you'd find much of the same. Change the setting to the lab or keeps and it becomes a different story. Change the player setups to pugs or mostly pugs, and it becomes a different story. Throw in adds or surfers or whatever, and again, a different story. Throw those things out the window and now there are too many variables to even really compare.

    I just want to note that the game functions much differently now days than it did back when you are your citing examples. Hybrid setups (especially the alb 3-3 setups) were super powerful back then (and still are solid to an extent now). However, that's not the case anymore. Mid hybrid groups generally don't do as well as mid full caster groups. Hib has always done poorly with Hybrid. Alb seems to be the only realm that I think could still benefit from having non-caster/support in the group (though, I still think you would probably be better off stacking an alb group with caster dps/util). The problem is the 2 bard 4 caster grp on mid, or a full mid caster group with warlocks. 8v8ing with a hybrid mid group with above average coordination going into a full hib caster group (2 bard 4 caster) with close to equal skill levels is just going to be an awful idea.

    I haven't been in a group in the last two+ years that wanted to play hybrid when wanting to have an optimal setup. It's either full tank (push and hope you can kill and not get out CC'd) or a full caster group (at least on mid/hib.. I've avoided playing albion lately).

    5 tank (especially hib) imo, is the only thing that can really compete with most equal skilled caster groups.

    Ideally, I think there should be counters to all setups. Right now, the counter to a full caster group is a caster group. Same with a full tank group (I view the setups as mostly equal at the moment, at least with the hib 5 tank). I do think a caster group should generally beat out a tank group if played properly.

    Hybrids, in my opinion, seem to just be lost. I love playing hybrids and would rather go out with a hybrid to fight a full caster group 100 times rather than play a full caster group myself.

    One cause could be the RA investment required by tanks. Charge 5 Det 9, some AOM, a dragon/pict Magic resist charge in the template, and the ml10 cloak (also needing celerity charges in some cases to actually be able to land styles because debuffs+pbt). There is also the need for Soldier's Barricade from heavy tanks. Also, RAs like BAOD are great from casters are great for their tank counterparts, but that is a large investment, and most casters I know would rather spend most of their points for damage RAs.

    As I mentioned above, tanks have to invest in AOM and template resist charges. You don't see most casters in the 8v8 scene throwing points into PD (which at PD9, gives you 30% secondary resists rather than the 20% from AOM) or running dragon tank rings for the PD charge. Again, tank dps is easily mitigated and there are no debuffs (like resist debuffs) to take away nearly all of a targets resists to melee (other than the necro AF debuff, but it's really really hard to fit a necro into group following the pet dot nerf/resist pierce nerf on their pet's nuke.. plus, it is only alb).

    I have plenty of suggestions on how to make hybrids more appealing. I've posted them on postcount and the internal forums, and will do again if anyone wants to hear some ideas in my head.

    I know there are different opinions, but from an 8v8 stand point, this is all I see at the moment. Someone mentioned tanks having advantages in certain areas of terrain (as well as casters having an advantage as well), and that's great! But if we were trying to balance the game on group cap vs group cap in semi open field (or even zerg vs zerg in open field), I believe there is a shift in balance we need to look at.

    My bottom line is that Hybrid groups should be one of the most powerful setups (as they utilize all the class archetypes). However, over the years, the power scale has shifted in favor of full caster groups (with the hib 5 tank exception). We should try to push for a more balanced scale between the caster and tank archetypes in a group sense. Sorry for rambling.

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    What's all this nonsense? Vailside's Avatar
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    If I of all people can get RR10 on a caster, then that is saying something needs to be addressed. Cause I am even worse on them than anything else.

    /thread
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    I forgot about the dex investment. But that isn't even close to det9. Only a couple casters really need to invest upwards of dex7 or 8. And some of those casters can use dex myths, like wizard. I only have dex6 on my wizard. That saves you 19 RA points. And most casters don't need more than 374. Low levels of dex depending on race.

    Obe makes a good point about casters not investing in any PD. With the way resist debuffs are currently working, you have to invest in AoM and include AoM charge items in a template. Luckily they aren't that difficult to fit in if you exclude shape shifts and other toys. A minimum of AoM5 is another 10 points spent.

    As for casters they don't even need to template a melee resist /use. Thanks to pictslayer weapons the 10% charge is available on pictslayer runic maces/hammers. Easy to fit in 1H slot at CL3. I'm glad they nerfed the $#@! out of the disarm because that was incredibly overpowered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    While it's not as much as det9 casters have to spend in aug dex first. Depending on the race that can be a only a little or a lot.

    The caster vs. tank argument to me is pretty much nonsense. I do find that hybrids are the ones that suffer. Det9+Stocism tanks win. Tanks with tricks like charge win. Tanks with uber magic defense win. Hybrids having none of that are usually left out. So to me the problem with Det9/Stocism/Charge etc. isn't between Caster and Tank it's between Tank and Hybrid Tank. It's why Reavers and Champs and (melee if they exist) thanes and such have trouble getting anything but very specialized groups. But absent debuff trains casters are in as bad of a situation as any hybrid tank unless they are unique like sorcs (primary cc) or theurgs (primary interrupt)
    I have a slight problem in comparing the spending on aug dex to reach a break point to getting det 9 and/or charge. Casters can function without hitting their highest break point for quite a while (they did so for quite some time when the current break point table was unknown). I see having high det and/or charge (depending on your class) being entirely necessary in allowing you to do your role as a tank. I see reaching my final breakpoint added help in allowing me to do my job on a caster, not necessary (and on many casters, if the 'proper' race, you can generally spend very little, though there are exceptions).

    That being said, maybe we have different experiences. My playstyle includes 8v8, 8manning (mainlanding fighting other groups/zergs that we find), solo, and duo/small man. I tend to avoid keep warfare as well as Laby warfare. I also do not know what you mean when you are saying things like "Det9+Stocism tanks win. Tanks with tricks like charge win. Tanks with uber magic defense win." What are they winning? If I were making a hib group and had to choose between a champion and a BM to play an offensive tank, 9 times out of 10, I would choose champion.

    BMs, for example, can fly in every 90 seconds and choose what it wants to do. It's choices are generally: 1) try to stick one target and kill it while using banelords to interrupt things in a close proximity (if they are up), or, 2) Volley between multiple targets to try to proc pets and interrupts as much as you can during charge. The problem is, getting in with charge can be easy. Staying in required banelords and/or a lot of forward line presence from group members. Leaving also requires banelords and a lot of presence from other front line members. However, if you have no AOM and have no magic charge/cloak charge, you're probably going to die in about 4-5 nukes (if you get nuked for an average of 700 from spec nukers, which is probably normal for a BM with yellow resists getting matter/cold nuked with no AOM/magic charge), you will die in 5 nukes (BMs generally have over 3k hits). If you're con debuffed and/or con sheared, you will probably die in 4 nukes. Same can be said for a merc or zerk going against other caster assist trains (BMs have to deal with warlock chambers and warlock 2250 +10% range nukes :< ). My point here is they can get in with charge easily. Banelords allow them to stay in or get out, but then they are down for 5 minutes. Getting back in without banelords is one of the hardest things to do vs a good caster group. Tanks like champs can do well by using their insta interrupts and throw out some forward line debuffs, which is nice.. But they die faster than BMs (less hits) and don't have the option to fly in every 90 seconds and can get CC'd a little longer. I would rather have the ranged interrupts from the champ over the BM having to get in so far to properly use its timer reliant interrupts. Having charge and stoicism doesn't always mean it's a better tank.

    Another point is heavy tanks do well to soak damage. They still require a lot of RAs in order to do it. You need decent AOM and decent SB in order to really be able to 'uber magic defense'. But in the end, you have no charge or instant ranged interrupts. You turn into a CL disease bot that generally shouldn't catch a target. And you can still die quickly when getting assisted on if you're healers aren't open for the 5 second period you're taking damage.

    My argument to your last point regarding casters w/o debuff trains being in a bad situation: Casters generally always carry most of the utility in groups. RMs and Theurgs have PBT. Most casters have baseline stat debuffs. Classes like sorcs, sms, and elds are absolutely loaded with utility. They all have spec debuffs (which are absolutely huge, can be spammed now due to power regen, and are on crazily short RUTs). In addition to their spec debuffs, each of those classes has other utility that makes it amazingly good, regardless of debuff train or not.

    Theurgs, other than pet spam, have huge utility, just in the form of pbt/haste debuff on one class! Then you add in the snare and stun pets (which used properly, are crazy good). If the utility was spread around a bit more (tanks with NS, stat debuffs similar to casters, demezz, etc) it would be a lot better, as you'd be forced to group tanks for their utility instead of their DPS (which is eclipsed by caster dps) and their interrupt abilities (which is done better by support classes like bards and pac healers and pets).

    As of now, you can get tons of DPS, tons of utility, tons of CC, and tons of frontline interrupts just with casters and support. You can't do that with full tanks and support (the only exception being hib tank groups due to champions(debuffs, but single target, 20 second RUT, and only spec)/vws(aoe interrupts, BAOD, and slow pet clears)/vamps (huge dps, mainly due to caster dmg class.. but so easily CC'd) , but you do not get nearly the same amount of utility as you could with casters.

    Keep in mind, I am not just basing this off of island 8v8 elitest IRC fights (I know how you feel about things like that). I'm basing this also when I go out with (what I consider) good groups and sometimes not so great pugs thrown together using region/random irc people (another source of region now days) and fight mainland groups/mini zergs etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaster-S- View Post
    I forgot about the dex investment. But that isn't even close to det9. Only a couple casters really need to invest upwards of dex7 or 8. And some of those casters can use dex myths, like wizard. I only have dex6 on my wizard. That saves you 19 RA points. And most casters don't need more than 374. Low levels of dex depending on race.

    Obe makes a good point about casters not investing in any PD. With the way resist debuffs are currently working, you have to invest in AoM and include AoM charge items in a template. Luckily they aren't that difficult to fit in if you exclude shape shifts and other toys. A minimum of AoM5 is another 10 points spent.

    As for casters they don't even need to template a melee resist /use. Thanks to pictslayer weapons the 10% charge is available on pictslayer runic maces/hammers. Easy to fit in 1H slot at CL3. I'm glad they nerfed the $#@! out of the disarm because that was incredibly overpowered.

    I think the pictslayer charges are 20% (pictish being 10%), and if I'm not mistaken, they are first tier

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Devaster-S- View Post
    I forgot about the dex investment. But that isn't even close to det9. Only a couple casters really need to invest upwards of dex7 or 8. And some of those casters can use dex myths, like wizard. I only have dex6 on my wizard. That saves you 19 RA points. And most casters don't need more than 374. Low levels of dex depending on race.

    Obe makes a good point about casters not investing in any PD. With the way resist debuffs are currently working, you have to invest in AoM and include AoM charge items in a template. Luckily they aren't that difficult to fit in if you exclude shape shifts and other toys. A minimum of AoM5 is another 10 points spent.

    As for casters they don't even need to template a melee resist /use. Thanks to pictslayer weapons the 10% charge is available on pictslayer runic maces/hammers. Easy to fit in 1H slot at CL3. I'm glad they nerfed the $#@! out of the disarm because that was incredibly overpowered.

    I think the pictslayer charges are 20% (pictish being 10%), and if I'm not mistaken, they are first tier
    My bad. The melee belt /uses are 10% and last 10 minutes. Exactly the same as the dragon ring/bracer /uses. Also first tier like dragon melee /uses. The mace/staff is a 20s /use and 20% primary to melee resists. But then again you can't get melee resist buffs outside of the CL one and champ/slayer weapon/shield/harp. Either way I was further agreeing that casters really don't need to spend points to negate melee damage. Items with great /uses are easily available and fit in templates and don't even need to be templated. Zo is put in all templates and now you have these melee /uses in 1H slot or staff. Not to mention the traldor's HP boost /use now. And the magic resist /uses from dragon jewelry. Casters have it so much easier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    I have a slight problem in comparing the spending on aug dex to reach a break point to getting det 9 and/or charge. Casters can function without hitting their highest break point for quite a while (they did so for quite some time when the current break point table was unknown). I see having high det and/or charge (depending on your class) being entirely necessary in allowing you to do your role as a tank. I see reaching my final breakpoint added help in allowing me to do my job on a caster, not necessary (and on many casters, if the 'proper' race, you can generally spend very little, though there are exceptions).
    I ran 398 dex on my elf (read not ideal dex race) before the dex break points were "known" Most people ran 386. It's ALWAYS been paramount to run high dex so I think you're just looking at it wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    That being said, maybe we have different experiences. My playstyle includes 8v8, 8manning (mainlanding fighting other groups/zergs that we find), solo, and duo/small man. I tend to avoid keep warfare as well as Laby warfare. I also do not know what you mean when you are saying things like "Det9+Stocism tanks win. Tanks with tricks like charge win. Tanks with uber magic defense win." What are they winning? If I were making a hib group and had to choose between a champion and a BM to play an offensive tank, 9 times out of 10, I would choose champion.
    Not trying to suggest right/wrong or anything else but I confident that right now you'd been in the extreme minority at this stage of the game to pick champ over bm. While my champ is rr11 (my bm only 10) I rarely ever see champs and when I do it's in 4-5 tank groups.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    Another point is heavy tanks do well to soak damage. They still require a lot of RAs in order to do it. You need decent AOM and decent SB in order to really be able to 'uber magic defense'. But in the end, you have no charge or instant ranged interrupts. You turn into a CL disease bot that generally shouldn't catch a target. And you can still die quickly when getting assisted on if you're healers aren't open for the 5 second period you're taking damage.
    Heavy tanks do soak up damage very well. It's literally impossible for a solo caster to kill a solo heavy tank. Again while I personally don't complain about that imbalance from the POV of a caster I do complain about it from the pov of a hybrid -survivability/utility gap and light tank -dps gap. I don't feel the other types of tanks are getting enough value. I have no trouble healing heavy tanks even with low heal spec. I simply don't buy the die quickly part. Heavy tanks die when they are diseased and FAR FAR out of position... ie player issues not balance issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    My argument to your last point regarding casters w/o debuff trains being in a bad situation: Casters generally always carry most of the utility in groups. RMs and Theurgs have PBT. Most casters have baseline stat debuffs. Classes like sorcs, sms, and elds are absolutely loaded with utility. They all have spec debuffs (which are absolutely huge, can be spammed now due to power regen, and are on crazily short RUTs). In addition to their spec debuffs, each of those classes has other utility that makes it amazingly good, regardless of debuff train or not.

    Theurgs, other than pet spam, have huge utility, just in the form of pbt/haste debuff on one class! Then you add in the snare and stun pets (which used properly, are crazy good). If the utility was spread around a bit more (tanks with NS, stat debuffs similar to casters, demezz, etc) it would be a lot better, as you'd be forced to group tanks for their utility instead of their DPS (which is eclipsed by caster dps) and their interrupt abilities (which is done better by support classes like bards and pac healers and pets).
    I'm not sure what the point of the part about debuffs is...
    1) debuffs are equal opportunity. ---They effect everyone and serve to slow down fights. That's been a meta goal for a long time.
    2) A word about PBT. PBT is vastly underpowered and sort of a poor design. It's a 2001 relic and since things like the ablatives that came along with bainshees and now has been distributed to minstrel/paladin mentalist skald etc. is kind of just a legacy thing. It hurts the 2H users but even then it requires so many other things to be stacked (sadly as you note in the theurg case those things are all packaged up... if it was any other class people would see that as overpowered but somehow that class simply CANNOT GET NERFED for some unknown godless reason)
    3) Anyway the point is... so what? All tanks now have rear snares and you can't run them out of endo leaving no escape tactic except to avoid getting hit altogether or trying to exploit LOS type things. (or hope that the tank is stupid enough not to sprint which is amazingly still super common) it's unfortunate that there isn't a little more dynamism between the caster either never gets touched or never gets to cast aspect but it's going to be tremendously difficult to change much about that.

    4-1000000) Damage.

    With something stupid like MoM/AA/WP 8+ without a debuff I routinely hit people for less than 350 with a cold nuke. That's 30+ million realm points to hit for less than 400 on soft targets that I guarantee don't have any realm points spent in AoM etc. And you think that the utility makes up for that???? No, $#@! no. People played and play casters to do damage in general. (See the bazillion fire wizards that will be on tonight that albs took an extra power relic as proof) That's the contract of the archetype. You get cloth armor and are vulnerable and you have to deal with interrupts and you get to blow $#@! up.

    What's stupid is that utility comes at relatively LOW spec (or is free in baseline stat debuffs) and DPS requires FULL spec on 1.0 classes.
    examples:
    10-11 for a grey nearsight that lasts 2 minutes, interrupts and still is 2300 range.
    28 spec for a ae insta str/con debuff. Disease...
    CL disease is stupid. It's free to nearly everyone and the negligible effect of the str difference is unimportant on RvR timescale.
    19 for demezzes which nearly singlehandedly makes a caster viable
    theurg pets fit here
    baseline stun, root, fit here.

    Then you look at Damage.
    45+ spec to get the last nuke when the only difference between those nukes is delve (except for the weird wizard and mentalist ones)
    47-49 spec to get the last useful magic resist debuff.

    I've argued until I've been blue in the face that they should normalize magic resists and focus on the 2nd tier of resist debuffs and encourage split spec casters but I feel like I'm talking to a herd of cats sometimes. The level 50 wizard bolt and whether other classes should have stuff like it has been the source of so much discussion it's sickening. The problem is that unlike melee where you can spec your weapon to 3X and use +skill to get over 50 and have solid damage and that the utility of each style is in the style that can be at level 5 or 50.. with casters you MUST spec that 1.0 class to some absurd high spec level (specifically against game design) and at that point if all you can do is that 1 nuke the class is kind of a joke so all that other crap has been thrown in for free. It would be better imo if casters had a skill like damage and a spec ("style") like damage modifier but I don't see that happening.

    But then to your point you look at the damage a low rank caster in a group and on a debuff train can pump out and it feels unfair. I get that. Somewhat parallel to the tank vs tank thing, it bothers me more that I've put the time in to have a rr12 eld and played a ment to r12 and seen how heat/cold damage is totally $#@! unless I have someone debuffing for me.

    So in general I'm for raising the floor and lowering the ceiling but what that might mean for you is that the average damage you'd see from casters would go up... maybe quite a bit but that the high end damage you'd see when you run into people who play at the top level would go down. I'm not sure which you'd prefer but I don't see how you can espouse the greatness of "skilled" players on the one hand and then sit there and beg for them to be nerfed for exploiting that skill too.
    Last edited by Vyx; 05-06-2013 at 03:12 PM.

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    I think we have a warped view on what damage is "$#@!". Even nuking at 350 constantly is about what most tanks will be swinging for. And 350 with AA9 and MoM9 seems pretty low unless you are nuking a heavy tank with high AoM. Not to mention that 350 isn't factoring in the 50% chance for a crit at WP9. Perhaps heals are too big now?

    In comparison to the 500-600 you nuke for with a debuff it isn't good. Closer to 700 with high damage passives.

    Casters are investing in damage passives early, while melee classes are not. And melee classes do not get the same kind of benefit casters get like MoM. I feel like that gap should be closed a bit. Even in a hybrid setup it is more beneficial for the melee classes to spec to soak up damage rather than deal it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaster-S- View Post
    I think we have a warped view on what damage is "$#@!". Even nuking at 350 constantly is about what most tanks will be swinging for. And 350 with AA9 and MoM9 seems pretty low unless you are nuking a heavy tank with high AoM. Not to mention that 350 isn't factoring in the 50% chance for a crit at WP9. Perhaps heals are too big now?

    In comparison to the 500-600 you nuke for with a debuff it isn't good. Closer to 700 with high damage passives.

    Casters are investing in damage passives early, while melee classes are not. And melee classes do not get the same kind of benefit casters get like MoM. I feel like that gap should be closed a bit. Even in a hybrid setup it is more beneficial for the melee classes to spec to soak up damage rather than deal it.
    A caster SHOULD out damage a tank SIGNIFICANTLY. That's by design.
    I'm one of the best at identifying the class of the target I'm on.. so yeah.. I not talking about nuking heavy tanks. I'm talking about nuking people who simply have red friar resists or red shaman resists and get it for free. No ml10 cloak nothing special (sometimes a ring/pants change) but nothing that required any in combat action like baod, or even tic rr5 etc.

    I do think heals are too powerful. I think that simply reducing the range of heals down 10% would help tanks A LOT.

    I don't see a problem with casters investing in damage passives early. Again, by design mostly they are to be dps dealers. Also, casters don't get the same benefit of utility/defense RAs that tanks get. I'd love to see MoC reverted back to a shorter duration 100% DAMAGE value ability but it's just another example of the utility comes cheap (shaman with moc1 is golden) that healing is overpowered (50% moc heals usually good enough) and that damage costs too much to be worth it (30 points for 75% of WTF)

    For years I looked at trying to make the Concentration RA worthwhile but it's just not. Quick(slow)casting is almost never useful to me trying to do it 2x never has enough of a payoff on a caster. To put it in perspective consider if you gave it to a healing class and whoa 1 extra 1k heal (that would always land as you wouldn't be worried about run-thru) and that's gigantic.

    I've run high toughness, I've run high PD... they just end up not worth it because unlike something like Charge they don't allow you do anything. You talk about the gap for tanks... for casters it's just not worth it for casters to spend much elsewhere at all, it's a BIGGER gap. You mentioned purge. It's only useful to purge if you get caught and the mechanics of Endo, snares, interrupts, etc make it such that as a caster you have to be good at NOT getting caught in melee so purge loses a ton of value.

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    The roles of classes have been long forgotten. Casters used to be glass cannons, but it is so much more difficult to kill them now that it is completely unfair for casters to SIGNIFICANTLY out damage a melee class by design anymore. I'd like the game to go back to original designs, but it won't.

    And the thing you forget is that caster damage is not affected by armor, with the exception of bolts. Melee damage is affected by both AF and ABS. So when I say 350 on average for melee, that goes down against plenty of classes.

    MoC, Conc, and BAOD are not worthless RAs. And 30 points for 75% uninterruptable damage is fair to me. Especially considering how high damage gets with a debuff.
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    No the roles of classes haven't been forgotten.

    The damage goes way up too. Getting hit for 800 while wearing cloth makes it easy to remember that on casters but tanks tend to forget it when they hit heavy abs classes.

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    I don't know Vxy, you talk about nuking for 350ish normally on a rr12 eld.. I played my mates rr9 Ment (he played my Bard) for a while (spec'd high mentalism, using 199 delve spec nuke with the heal). Undebuffed (without the NS energy debuff), I was nuking almost everyone for over 450... Once I did use the NS debuff (10%), I was nuking 90% of targets for over 500... Relics were even during most of the time we played..


    And I used to run 386 dex on my saracen sorc for forever. I hardly ever went over dex 3 (using old RA value.. dex 5 now days) on most casters.

    Also, a solo caster should be able to kill a heavy tank without much of a problem (it will take a while if you're 1v1ing, but on most casters, it shouldn't be too difficult). In a group, 2 spec nukers and a debuffer can blow the $#@! out of a heavy tank very very quickly unless fury is up.. And you can still kill tanks with fury up.. I've done it plenty of times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    4-1000000) Damage.

    With something stupid like MoM/AA/WP 8+ without a debuff I routinely hit people for less than 350 with a cold nuke. That's 30+ million realm points to hit for less than 400 on soft targets that I guarantee don't have any realm points spent in AoM etc. And you think that the utility makes up for that???? No, $#@! no. People played and play casters to do damage in general. (See the bazillion fire wizards that will be on tonight that albs took an extra power relic as proof) That's the contract of the archetype. You get cloth armor and are vulnerable and you have to deal with interrupts and you get to blow $#@! up.
    The $#@! are you talking about? That's how hard my Molvik Eld nukes for. Competent groups running pure DPS classes like Warlocks and Fire Wizards as often as they do now is a new thing - the only place I've seen a truly dominant group run either of those classes regularly pre~2010 is on Mordred because you could get away with running weird classes due to weird and very small cores. The reason they're ran often now is simply because of new gear and RA options and lack of top tier healers - I haven't come across many people that can react to quad casting with a double bolt, and being able to throw something out before the bolts hit over 75% of the time like I used to see regularly. There's a reason why utility casters have been a part of a group's core even in a hard melee push groups and it's not because one of the players always just wants to play an RM and nuke people.

    And yeah, any caster with disease, speed, or a pet should be able to collect free RPs from a heavy.

    Just did the math and nuking someone with a 209 nuke with MoM9 and 10% damage you cap at exactly 800. If you're generous and give your target purple resists buffs - so let's say 50% to cold, factor in 10% pierce that's 40% which means your cap without a debuff is ~480. At RR12 you should be preeeetty close to this number, so either your template has 0 acuity 0 +skill, or you in fact actually can't "guarantee [they] don't have any realm points spent in AoM etc."
    Last edited by cheesecake; 05-06-2013 at 05:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    I don't know Vxy, you talk about nuking for 350ish normally on a rr12 eld.. I played my mates rr9 Ment (he played my Bard) for a while (spec'd high mentalism, using 199 delve spec nuke with the heal). Undebuffed (without the NS energy debuff), I was nuking almost everyone for over 450... Once I did use the NS debuff (10%), I was nuking 90% of targets for over 500... Relics were even during most of the time we played..


    And I used to run 386 dex on my saracen sorc for forever. I hardly ever went over dex 3 (using old RA value.. dex 5 now days) on most casters.

    Also, a solo caster should be able to kill a heavy tank without much of a problem (it will take a while if you're 1v1ing, but on most casters, it shouldn't be too difficult). In a group, 2 spec nukers and a debuffer can blow the $#@! out of a heavy tank very very quickly unless fury is up.. And you can still kill tanks with fury up.. I've done it plenty of times.
    Yes I said that 386 was the most common.
    Yes energy is a far better damage table than cold or heat. Why should it be that way????
    A solo caster killing a solo heavy tank. LOLOLOLOLOLOL Please.
    Yes 3 casters nuking 1 target can kill it. However if that target has 2 healers healing during the damage then no they can't. Yes it's hard to heal at the "right" times because when each one happens in ~1 sec and in theory they could all land at ~exactly the same time the window to heal is short. However, healing amount > damage amount so that just suggests that it's not the damage amount that is the problem and instead is the speed so those dex dex/qui debuffs you were lamenting all of a sudden seem like a good idea again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    I don't know Vxy, you talk about nuking for 350ish normally on a rr12 eld.. I played my mates rr9 Ment (he played my Bard) for a while (spec'd high mentalism, using 199 delve spec nuke with the heal). Undebuffed (without the NS energy debuff), I was nuking almost everyone for over 450... Once I did use the NS debuff (10%), I was nuking 90% of targets for over 500... Relics were even during most of the time we played..


    And I used to run 386 dex on my saracen sorc for forever. I hardly ever went over dex 3 (using old RA value.. dex 5 now days) on most casters.

    Also, a solo caster should be able to kill a heavy tank without much of a problem (it will take a while if you're 1v1ing, but on most casters, it shouldn't be too difficult). In a group, 2 spec nukers and a debuffer can blow the $#@! out of a heavy tank very very quickly unless fury is up.. And you can still kill tanks with fury up.. I've done it plenty of times.
    Yes I said that 386 was the most common.
    Yes energy is a far better damage table than cold or heat. Why should it be that way????
    A solo caster killing a solo heavy tank. LOLOLOLOLOLOL Please.
    Yes 3 casters nuking 1 target can kill it. However if that target has 2 healers healing during the damage then no they can't. Yes it's hard to heal at the "right" times because when each one happens in ~1 sec and in theory they could all land at ~exactly the same time the window to heal is short. However, healing amount > damage amount so that just suggests that it's not the damage amount that is the problem and instead is the speed so those dex dex/qui debuffs you were lamenting all of a sudden seem like a good idea again.
    You really think a heavy can do anything about a caster that can kite when they have no real ranged abilities? Lol.... How often are both healers open to freecast heals on 1 guy? Two nukers with a debuff has traditionally been the breaking point to beat one healer, but you don't often have two people open and in range to do that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashmir View Post
    Throw those things out the window and now there are too many variables to even really compare.

    I just want to note that the game functions much differently now days than it did back when you are your citing examples.
    Yup. There aren't 8-12 set guild groups per cluster anymore loosely following the 8v8 code. That makes pretty much any talk about current 8v8 as the standard for balance kind of off, which is what I meant by the final statement you quoted. You can't compare what people do in pugs these days to what people did (or could still do) in a set group that runs 5+ nights a week. Otherwise, the game seems to function exactly like it did in the examples I was giving: Casters do obscene damage when not neutralized, so much of any fight depends on how well you neutralize them. A debuffed tank might deal lower damage, but an interrupted caster deals zero damage. A dead anything deals no damage. You won't convince me that something that used to work so well won't work now because of very minor changes (everything mentioned existed and was used extensively in real 8v8, even 7 years ago, with the exception of mythirians, which is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned... there was extensive ways to gain power back then). The only reason it doesn't work is because groups lack the coordination required to pull it off. That's just the reality of the game at this point in time since there aren't many (or any?) guild groups running set 8s every night. Pugs build all caster or all tank groups because it's far easier to do, as everyone really only needs to know a few tactics. A balanced group needs to know every tactic and have that one special person that knows what to do and when to do it calling it out. That group is going to do better than any pug that's all caster or all tank by the very nature of the dedication required to do it. I also won't convince you that it will work without finding 8 dedicated players to prove my point. Because of all of that, I guess it's really a moot point... but so is any (serious) further talk of balance. Again, I go back to my ultimate point: This 12 year old game still has the best pvp of any mmo by a wide margin. There is a counter (if not multiple counters) to every situation brought up. If counters exist, things aren't THAT bad out of balance. If it wasn't fun, you'd not be playing a 12-year-old game that's considered extremely outdated by current standards.

    I did enjoy what you called rambling, however, so please don't apologize. I was notorious for posting ridiculously long posts back on VN (thus the novel inc! title here), so I enjoy reading descriptive posts. I love talking tactics, too... I'm one of the oldest tacticians around. I actually played a big part in the development of loop groups (it goes back way before ToA, though it didn't really get popularized until after NF. fyi, a bard named Krups from Lancelot originated the loop afaik. Stangkilla and I were both in his guild back then... it was really the only way to fight the alb zerg on Lancelot because pbae/bomb groups had not yet become the norm. Some groups on Mordred started tinkering with the Loop to take advantage of the original overpowered speedwarp. The first group I saw use it extensively on a blue server was a mid-lance guild called Suzerain. It pretty much exploded after that.) A really good tank (or pair of tanks) that know what they're doing can be amazing in a loop group (and for far more than just being a BG bot).

    Anyway... cheers for the discussion!
    Last edited by Ashmir; 05-06-2013 at 07:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheesecake View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    I don't know Vxy, you talk about nuking for 350ish normally on a rr12 eld.. I played my mates rr9 Ment (he played my Bard) for a while (spec'd high mentalism, using 199 delve spec nuke with the heal). Undebuffed (without the NS energy debuff), I was nuking almost everyone for over 450... Once I did use the NS debuff (10%), I was nuking 90% of targets for over 500... Relics were even during most of the time we played..


    And I used to run 386 dex on my saracen sorc for forever. I hardly ever went over dex 3 (using old RA value.. dex 5 now days) on most casters.

    Also, a solo caster should be able to kill a heavy tank without much of a problem (it will take a while if you're 1v1ing, but on most casters, it shouldn't be too difficult). In a group, 2 spec nukers and a debuffer can blow the $#@! out of a heavy tank very very quickly unless fury is up.. And you can still kill tanks with fury up.. I've done it plenty of times.
    Yes I said that 386 was the most common.
    Yes energy is a far better damage table than cold or heat. Why should it be that way????
    A solo caster killing a solo heavy tank. LOLOLOLOLOLOL Please.
    Yes 3 casters nuking 1 target can kill it. However if that target has 2 healers healing during the damage then no they can't. Yes it's hard to heal at the "right" times because when each one happens in ~1 sec and in theory they could all land at ~exactly the same time the window to heal is short. However, healing amount > damage amount so that just suggests that it's not the damage amount that is the problem and instead is the speed so those dex dex/qui debuffs you were lamenting all of a sudden seem like a good idea again.
    You really think a heavy can do anything about a caster that can kite when they have no real ranged abilities? Lol.... How often are both healers open to freecast heals on 1 guy? Two nukers with a debuff has traditionally been the breaking point to beat one healer, but you don't often have two people open and in range to do that.

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    They days of wasting them with my crossbow snap shot as they try and kite away...

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    It's become painfully obvious over the years that our views of the current game, and even visions of the future are insanely different, Vyx. The thing is, that is perfectly fine. The game isn't made for you, nor is it made for me. It's up to Mythic to decide how to please everyone as best as they can. That's why balancing is so so hard.

    I find it hard to think that reducing the range of heals helps tanks. Using my logic, it does the exact opposite. Tanks, being pushed in, will get punished even more by being too far from heals. Or a healer will have to push further in to heal, which puts him in a worse position and will likely be easier to interrupt.

    I also find PBT to be incredibly good. Underpowered is never a word I would use to describe PBT. Also, Conc is absolutely amazing for theurgs and sorcs.. The first thing I got on my theurg (he's relatively low rank - 6l4) was conc 5. If I had to start from rr1 on my sorc (luckily I am rr11), I'd get conc 5 asap.

    I don't understand the logic by saying PD and toughness don't allow you to do something... That's like saying AOM doesn't allow a tank to do anything, so it is useless. Also, purge is a solid investment (all levels, depending on how you play)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ashmir View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashmir View Post
    Throw those things out the window and now there are too many variables to even really compare.

    I just want to note that the game functions much differently now days than it did back when you are your citing examples.
    Yup. There aren't 8-12 set guild groups per cluster anymore loosely following the 8v8 code. That makes pretty much any talk about current 8v8 as the standard for balance kind of off, which is what I meant by the final statement you quoted. You can't compare what people do in pugs these days to what people did (or could still do) in a set group that runs 5+ nights a week. Otherwise, the game seems to function exactly like it did in the examples I was giving: Casters do obscene damage when not neutralized, so much of any fight depends on how well you neutralize them. A debuffed tank might deal lower damage, but an interrupted caster deals zero damage. A dead anything deals no damage. You won't convince me that something that used to work so well won't work now because of very minor changes (everything mentioned existed and was used extensively in real 8v8, even 7 years ago, with the exception of mythirians, which is a non-issue as far as I'm concerned... there was extensive ways to gain power back then). The only reason it doesn't work is because groups lack the coordination required to pull it off. That's just the reality of the game at this point in time since there aren't many (or any?) guild groups running set 8s every night. Pugs build all caster or all tank groups because it's far easier to do, as everyone really only needs to know a few tactics. A balanced group needs to know every tactic and have that one special person that knows what to do and when to do it calling it out. That group is going to do better than any pug that's all caster or all tank by the very nature of the dedication required to do it. I also won't convince you that it will work without finding 8 dedicated players to prove my point. Because of all of that, I guess it's really a moot point... but so is any (serious) further talk of balance. Again, I go back to my ultimate point: This 12 year old game still has the best pvp of any mmo by a wide margin. There is a counter (if not multiple counters) to every situation brought up. If counters exist, things aren't THAT bad out of balance. If it wasn't fun, you'd not be playing a 12-year-old game that's considered extremely outdated by current standards.

    I did enjoy what you called rambling, however, so please don't apologize. I was notorious for posting ridiculously long posts back on VN (thus the novel inc! title here), so I enjoy reading descriptive posts. I love talking tactics, too... I'm one of the oldest tacticians around. I actually played a big part in the development of loop groups (it goes back way before ToA, though it didn't really get popularized until after NF. fyi, a bard named Krups from Lancelot originated the loop afaik. Stangkilla and I were both in his guild back then... it was really the only way to fight the alb zerg on Lancelot because pbae/bomb groups had not yet become the norm. Some groups on Mordred started tinkering with the Loop to take advantage of the original overpowered speedwarp. The first group I saw use it extensively on a blue server was a mid-lance guild called Suzerain. It pretty much exploded after that.) A really good tank (or pair of tanks) that know what they're doing can be amazing in a loop group (and for far more than just being a BG bot).

    Anyway... cheers for the discussion!

    I've played with a solid core of people for over 3 years. I know how most of them play, and they know how I play. I understand people that run nightly might have good coordination, but the average player in the 8v8 scene is a hell of a lot better mechanically than they were 5-7 years ago (watch videos from now compared to then). People know the game better and most of the pugs you see running have played with the same 20ish people for the past couple of years. I had a feeling that the 'everyone sucks now, 8v8 died 5 years ago.. those were the real groups' argument was going to arise.

    Unfortunately, things do not work the same as they used to, especially now that everyone knows how to really nullify tanks, and can due to power regen/charges.

    Whether the game has changed due to small additions or large additions (chanters/ment getting more util, warlocks being able to nuke quickly from 3250, etc) or whether people are just smarter now and everyone knows to debuff tanks and just CC them/assist and insta kill them, the game has changed.

    The actual content of the game, or the general meta game.. It's 100% not the same game as it was years ago.

    Also, I remember playing my eld pre-mythirians.. I had to choose who I debuffed.. I couldn't spam 3 debuffs on anything that got into range and expect to nuke. I also remember the immense power issues on theurg. Mythirians and other power saving methods definitely affect play.

    I've played in set groups over the past few years (we had a group of about 10-12 we picked from, depending on availability). It was always obvious hib hybrid struggled (it's gotten better now with patches). Now hib caster groups (4 caster 2 bard) seems to reign supreme. Mid 4 SM SM RM BD Zerk was a really solid group, but dropping the zerk for a second BD just made the setup insane (back when BD pets would split and the bd's body debuff rupted). Albs 6 caster has been considered "Jesus" setup in most circles for years.

    It's sad when you're running a BM or a champ (or both), and someone says, "Hey.. we need more frontline pressure.. Let's drop the bm/champ for a bard." Same with mid and a pac healer (2 pac 1 aug setups are really really cool). Support and pets are now the frontline up there interrupting. They don't have the dps threat, but in all honesty, neither do tanks (especially if it is only 1 or 2 tanks pushing in).

    I've personally never said over the last year to 2 years (even to the people I've played with for over 3 years), "hey, let's run the best setup we can.. Let's do a hybrid."

    I do say, years ago, I always thought hybrids were great because tanks could go in and interrupt without getting insta blaped or made completely useless. Now, your pressure tank gets to CL disease the whole fight and either charge in every once in a while, hoping to not die before it can banelord, or CL disease and occasionally throw out an insta dd (depending on class, obv). As I said above, support (bards, healers, theurgs, etc) can do that forward line pressure just as good, if not better, than most tanks.

    Alb gets away with doing hybrid a bit easier because of the crazy interrupts (pets), range, and utility from the casters.

    Another point I'd like to bring up: I would join hybrid pugs 5-6 years ago fighting all sorts of setups (including a lot of caster pugs) and do great against them. Our pugs weren't coordinated at all.. So it's hard to blame the fall of hybrid setups only on the lack of coordination, at least from my point of view.

    I do enjoy debating the game. It's one of the best games out there, and it is still an absolute blast. It doesn't have the population anymore, but I view the current 8v8 community as being pretty solid in regards to mechanics and knowledge.

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    Region hybrid groups make baby Jesus cry. And Obe nailed all the points I was also making. The game has changed. I've been around doing 8v8, or at the very least, some form of group vs group since 2004. The quality and knowledge of players has improved. Templates have sure as $#@! improved. And everyone is now really high RR. Most of the zergers are RR11+.

    Pretty sure I've debated with you Ash several times over the years. Name is familiar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devaster-S- View Post
    Region hybrid groups make baby Jesus cry. And Obe nailed all the points I was also making. The game has changed. I've been around doing 8v8, or at the very least, some form of group vs group since 2004. The quality and knowledge of players has improved. Templates have sure as $#@! improved. And everyone is now really high RR. Most of the zergers are RR11+.

    Pretty sure I've debated with you Ash several times over the years. Name is familiar.
    I don't even know if it's fully knowledge or quality. Like has been mentioned, power management is such a joke now that there is no need to think about who you're going to stat debuff (Obe mentioned this). You have such power pool and such passive regen that it's almost trivial to literally blow every ability you have. Hell, even on my healer with no GPM and no infernal I can cast when I absolutely need to cast and never see the words "not enough power" scroll across my chat log. I will blow maybe one power pot for a standard fight, and if it's going on a bit longer, an MCL2 charge (which are ridiculously common), and I still do my job just fine. So, it may not even be a matter of knowledge. Everyone with 2 working brain cells knew that stat debuffs were a good thing to toss whenever they were available, the question is how do you manage that power cost in regards to other things you need to do. Now there is no question about managing it; power is easy to come by, which makes the relevant toys for casters more available. Hence why theurgists became so powerful. It wasn't necessarily the duration or added bonuses to certain pet types at certain levels. It was the fact that their pet power cost is based on % of base power, and the bonuses to power pool and power regen became so easy to obtain that casting pets was no longer a thought process of "ok who is the best target for this spell because it's the last one I can cast for a while?"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    It's become painfully obvious over the years that our views of the current game, and even visions of the future are insanely different, Vyx. The thing is, that is perfectly fine. The game isn't made for you, nor is it made for me. It's up to Mythic to decide how to please everyone as best as they can. That's why balancing is so so hard.

    I find it hard to think that reducing the range of heals helps tanks. Using my logic, it does the exact opposite. Tanks, being pushed in, will get punished even more by being too far from heals. Or a healer will have to push further in to heal, which puts him in a worse position and will likely be easier to interrupt.

    I also find PBT to be incredibly good. Underpowered is never a word I would use to describe PBT. Also, Conc is absolutely amazing for theurgs and sorcs.. The first thing I got on my theurg (he's relatively low rank - 6l4) was conc 5. If I had to start from rr1 on my sorc (luckily I am rr11), I'd get conc 5 asap.

    I don't understand the logic by saying PD and toughness don't allow you to do something... That's like saying AOM doesn't allow a tank to do anything, so it is useless. Also, purge is a solid investment (all levels, depending on how you play)
    A few comments.

    First, that people disagree and that it's ok sounds like it's a surprise to you. I'm not sure why. I know a lot of people playing this ancient game are finally growing up to be old enough now to realize the world doesn't revolve around them. Welcome to the wake.

    Second, you say that you've run with the same set group of people. That's a very bad thing for developing a balanced perspective. It's just an echo chamber. Bad ideas thrive in those environments.

    Regarding the abilities mentioned, saying conc is good for 2 classes in 1 realm doesn't make it good sorry. That's like saying because moc 1 is good for a shaman -> that it's, your term, "absolutely amazing" because of it. That's obviously absurd. PD & toughness don't allow you to not get interrupted. It doesn't allow you to not get CC'd. Those are the 2 things that in inhibit casters. Unlike tanks who can attack when being attacked casters cannot. Even times when they are not directly being attacked they often cannot cast. Tanks don't have to worry with or deal with that mechanic AT ALL and so many of them aren't observant enough to realize it's happening. PBT is on a 6 8 or 10 second refresh... even 1 person attacking will attack several times during those intervals. Standing around and relying on it doesn't make it so that as a caster you will ever get to post. It just mitigates some damage.. oh and btw you get interrupted if something hits the bladeturn. It might block a zo pet it might block a 2h swing. It's a dated ability overall.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    It's become painfully obvious over the years that our views of the current game, and even visions of the future are insanely different, Vyx. The thing is, that is perfectly fine. The game isn't made for you, nor is it made for me. It's up to Mythic to decide how to please everyone as best as they can. That's why balancing is so so hard.

    I find it hard to think that reducing the range of heals helps tanks. Using my logic, it does the exact opposite. Tanks, being pushed in, will get punished even more by being too far from heals. Or a healer will have to push further in to heal, which puts him in a worse position and will likely be easier to interrupt.

    I also find PBT to be incredibly good. Underpowered is never a word I would use to describe PBT. Also, Conc is absolutely amazing for theurgs and sorcs.. The first thing I got on my theurg (he's relatively low rank - 6l4) was conc 5. If I had to start from rr1 on my sorc (luckily I am rr11), I'd get conc 5 asap.

    I don't understand the logic by saying PD and toughness don't allow you to do something... That's like saying AOM doesn't allow a tank to do anything, so it is useless. Also, purge is a solid investment (all levels, depending on how you play)
    A few comments.

    First, that people disagree and that it's ok sounds like it's a surprise to you. I'm not sure why. I know a lot of people playing this ancient game are finally growing up old enough now to realize the world doesn't revolve around them. Welcome to the wake.

    Second, you say that you've run with the same set group of people. That's a very bad thing for developing a balanced perspective. It's just an echo chamber. Bad ideas thrive in those environments.

    Regarding the abilities mentioned, saying conc is good for 2 classes in 1 realm doesn't make it good sorry. That's like saying because moc 1 is good for a shaman -> that it's, your term, "absolutely amazing" because of it. That's obviously absurd. PD & toughness don't allow you to not get interrupted. It doesn't allow you to not get CC'd. Those are the 2 things that in inhibit casters. Unlike tanks who can attack when being attacked casters cannot. Even times when they are not directly being attacked they often cannot cast. Tanks don't have to worry with or deal with that mechanic AT ALL and so many of them aren't observant enough to realize it's happening. PBT is on a 6 8 or 10 second refresh... even 1 person attacking will attack several times during those intervals. Standing around and relying on it doesn't make it so that as a caster you will ever get to post. It just mitigates some damage.. oh and btw you get interrupted if something hits the bladeturn. It might block a zo pet it might block a 2h swing. It's a dated ability overall.
    I'll leave conc out, it's incredibly good for theurgs and sorcs yes, but I understand outside of those 2 classes its use is pretty much negated. Also, Moc1 is probably good for a theurg or sorc, but again, I agree that just because it's a staple on the shaman, it isn't the same for other casters. PD and toughness, yeah they don't allow you to ignore interrupts. But I mean, really, how often are tanks in real range of interrupting you with something other than a bow or CL disease if you're playing correctly? The answer should be almost never. And you're right, tanks don't have to worry about interrupt code, but they DO have to worry about interrupt code in a different way. "Will these 3 casters be interrupted long enough for me to get into the enemy and continue to interrupt before 2 of them get free and kill me in 3 seconds?" That = worry about interrupt code for tanks. You make it seem like charge is always available and every tank that can play the game will be on your heels before you can count to 3. That isn't the case; I've seen it too many times myself, both on the tank side and on the caster side. Playing a tank vs an enemy group, even if it's an 8man or a zerg, is like walking on the edge of a knife. A little too far in, you die quickly, a little too far back, your group dies slowly. Finding that sweet spot is far too hard when playing tank whereas casters have 1 thing in mind on inc: loop back, warp, wait for stupid players that get overzealous and move in too quickly, and kill them. It's lame.

    This is why I say the clip range changes were bad for the way the game was designed originally. Casters have that time on inc to flee from any incoming threat and get in safe position. The whole idea of DAOC originally worked because you COULD be caught off guard, now it is incredibly hard to get a solid blanket mez on an enemy group and destroy the main threats before they can fully recover. Like I said in my original post, that was a cut throat ideal of the game design, but it worked because of what casters could do if they were allowed the range to position themselves before a fight really began. Now that they have more awareness and more ability to position themselves safely, in addition to better templates, you see the outcome. Casters have a leg up from the get go on inc.
    Last edited by Omholt; 05-07-2013 at 12:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omholt View Post
    I'll leave conc out, it's incredibly good for theurgs and sorcs yes, but I understand outside of those 2 classes its use is pretty much negated. Also, Moc1 is probably good for a theurg or sorc, but again, I agree that just because it's a staple on the shaman, it isn't the same for other casters. PD and toughness, yeah they don't allow you to ignore interrupts. But I mean, really, how often are tanks in real range of interrupting you with something other than a bow or CL disease if you're playing correctly? The answer should be almost never. And you're right, tanks don't have to worry about interrupt code, but they DO have to worry about interrupt code in a different way. "Will these 3 casters be interrupted long enough for me to get into the enemy and continue to interrupt before 2 of them get free and kill me in 3 seconds?" That = worry about interrupt code for tanks. You make it seem like charge is always available and every tank that can play the game will be on your heels before you can count to 3. That isn't the case; I've seen it too many times myself, both on the tank side and on the caster side. Playing a tank vs an enemy group, even if it's an 8man or a zerg, is like walking on the edge of a knife. A little too far in, you die quickly, a little too far back, your group dies slowly. Finding that sweet spot is far too hard when playing tank whereas casters have 1 thing in mind on inc: loop back, warp, wait for stupid players that get overzealous and move in too quickly, and kill them. It's lame.
    how often are tanks in real range of interrupting you with something other than a bow or CL disease if you're playing correctly?

    So playing correctly is NEVER getting in range to be attacked right? Is that because once you are in range you can't do anything or because once you are in range you can't get back out of range or just because. That dynamic forces the play style in one way or another. Thus casters (mostly albs) with superior range win. Thus healing is tremendously overpowered.

    You make it seem like charge is always available and every tank that can play the game will be on your heels before you can count to 3.

    On inc from ~casting range have you ever actually counted the time down? If you stop to cast it is actually about 3 seconds..depending on what actually goes down. Thus people don't stop to cast. they run/kite -I label it differently depending how good they are at it. (People often use words like kite and assist and float and peel and in all sorts of ways that I find macabre perversions of the actual skill being butchered but they still use it)

    Finding that sweet spot is far too hard when playing tank whereas casters have 1 thing in mind on inc: loop back, warp, wait for stupid players that get overzealous and move in too quickly, and kill them. It's lame.


    All to often these discussions are described from the POV of a the solitary tank and multiple casters. I don't care if you want to talk 1v1 2v2 8v8 200v200 but goddamn it gets so tiresome to hear 'woe is me' I'm the "tank" and those "casters" killed me. And fwiw what you describe in that scenario goes back to range and movement speed not damage... and players. Why should "stupid players" win? I thought people playing camelot reveled in their non-dumbed-down-WoW MMO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Omholt View Post
    I'll leave conc out, it's incredibly good for theurgs and sorcs yes, but I understand outside of those 2 classes its use is pretty much negated. Also, Moc1 is probably good for a theurg or sorc, but again, I agree that just because it's a staple on the shaman, it isn't the same for other casters. PD and toughness, yeah they don't allow you to ignore interrupts. But I mean, really, how often are tanks in real range of interrupting you with something other than a bow or CL disease if you're playing correctly? The answer should be almost never. And you're right, tanks don't have to worry about interrupt code, but they DO have to worry about interrupt code in a different way. "Will these 3 casters be interrupted long enough for me to get into the enemy and continue to interrupt before 2 of them get free and kill me in 3 seconds?" That = worry about interrupt code for tanks. You make it seem like charge is always available and every tank that can play the game will be on your heels before you can count to 3. That isn't the case; I've seen it too many times myself, both on the tank side and on the caster side. Playing a tank vs an enemy group, even if it's an 8man or a zerg, is like walking on the edge of a knife. A little too far in, you die quickly, a little too far back, your group dies slowly. Finding that sweet spot is far too hard when playing tank whereas casters have 1 thing in mind on inc: loop back, warp, wait for stupid players that get overzealous and move in too quickly, and kill them. It's lame.
    how often are tanks in real range of interrupting you with something other than a bow or CL disease if you're playing correctly?

    So playing correctly is NEVER getting in range to be attacked right? Is that because once you are in range you can't do anything or because once you are in range you can't get back out of range or just because. That dynamic forces the play style in one way or another. Thus casters (mostly albs) with superior range win. Thus healing is tremendously overpowered.

    You make it seem like charge is always available and every tank that can play the game will be on your heels before you can count to 3.

    On inc from ~casting range have you ever actually counted the time down? If you stop to cast it is actually about 3 seconds..depending on what actually goes down. Thus people don't stop to cast. they run/kite -I label it differently depending how good they are at it. (People often use words like kite and assist and float and peel and in all sorts of ways that I find macabre perversions of the actual skill being butchered but they still use it)

    Finding that sweet spot is far too hard when playing tank whereas casters have 1 thing in mind on inc: loop back, warp, wait for stupid players that get overzealous and move in too quickly, and kill them. It's lame.


    All to often these discussions are described from the POV of a the solitary tank and multiple casters. I don't care if you want to talk 1v1 2v2 8v8 200v200 but goddamn it gets so tiresome to hear 'woe is me' I'm the "tank" and those "casters" killed me. And fwiw what you describe in that scenario goes back to range and movement speed not damage... and players. Why should "stupid players" win? I thought people playing camelot reveled in their non-dumbed-down-WoW MMO.
    It's about the solitary tank vs multiple casters because for the most part that is what the balance of the game has come to. Grouping more casting classes typically means easier wins. And when you say range, do you mean the clip range, which allows casters more time to set up properly, or do you mean since their damage is ranged it comes easier than getting 3 tanks stacked on top of each other to down 1 person? Just wondering.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Omholt View Post
    It's about the solitary tank vs multiple casters because for the most part that is what the balance of the game has come to. Grouping more casting classes typically means easier wins. And when you say range, do you mean the clip range, which allows casters more time to set up properly, or do you mean since their damage is ranged it comes easier than getting 3 tanks stacked on top of each other to down 1 person? Just wondering.
    LOL at least you have the gall to admit it. You want 1 tank to win against multiple casters. That's awesome dude. $#@!ing awesome. What else? Duel wield nuclear bombs? IP infinity? That oldie but VN goodie spammable purge... maybe with a side of Fury and weapons that spawn silence procing pets?

    And clip range lets everyone -not just casters, set up properly.

    I meant the range that you can typically begin to cast on someone. Since most spells are 1500 range and most people have + 10% bonus range that's what I meant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vyx View Post

    A few comments.

    First, that people disagree and that it's ok sounds like it's a surprise to you. I'm not sure why. I know a lot of people playing this ancient game are finally growing up to be old enough now to realize the world doesn't revolve around them. Welcome to the wake.

    Second, you say that you've run with the same set group of people. That's a very bad thing for developing a balanced perspective. It's just an echo chamber. Bad ideas thrive in those environments.

    Regarding the abilities mentioned, saying conc is good for 2 classes in 1 realm doesn't make it good sorry. That's like saying because moc 1 is good for a shaman -> that it's, your term, "absolutely amazing" because of it. That's obviously absurd. PD & toughness don't allow you to not get interrupted. It doesn't allow you to not get CC'd. Those are the 2 things that in inhibit casters. Unlike tanks who can attack when being attacked casters cannot. Even times when they are not directly being attacked they often cannot cast. Tanks don't have to worry with or deal with that mechanic AT ALL and so many of them aren't observant enough to realize it's happening. PBT is on a 6 8 or 10 second refresh... even 1 person attacking will attack several times during those intervals. Standing around and relying on it doesn't make it so that as a caster you will ever get to post. It just mitigates some damage.. oh and btw you get interrupted if something hits the bladeturn. It might block a zo pet it might block a 2h swing. It's a dated ability overall.

    Fair enough on Conc, but the RA has its place and is vital on sorc/theurg. Our argument on PD is crazy.. Just because an RA allows you not to get interrupted doesn't mean it is useless. AOM does allow me to teleport to a caster to kill him, is it useless? MOM and WP do not allow me to not get interrupted, are they useless? Yes, caster have to worry about interrupts. Tanks have to worry about being on top of a target to attack it. If not, they have to rely in instant dds (depending on class) and cl disease. If you choose attack 1 caster, you generally leave another caster or two wide open. A reason why support (and caster in general) are now seem as better interrupters as tank is because they can do it from range easily, not having to travel 1500 units while threatened to be nuked by multiple casters in order to interrupt 1, then having to move to another caster in the fight to interrupt it.

    Yes, pbt at its highest level is 6 seconds. Try debuffing (d/q and haste) a target and see how many times they hit through it.. PBT with the help of debuffs is one thing that is killing tanks.

    And I have run with a relatively set group of people (though, they have stopped playing), but at the current times, I make random pugs filled with IRC people/friends. I am a very well rounded player. I've done the 8v8 set group thing and the random group ever night thing. I love straight 8v8s, as well as 8vX.

    I'm not surprised people have different view points. I stated it was obvious we do not share the same logic when playing and thinking about this game.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Obelisk View Post
    Fair enough on Conc, but the RA has its place and is vital on sorc/theurg. Our argument on PD is crazy.. Just because an RA allows you not to get interrupted doesn't mean it is useless. AOM does allow me to teleport to a caster to kill him, is it useless? MOM and WP do not allow me to not get interrupted, are they useless? Yes, caster have to worry about interrupts. Tanks have to worry about being on top of a target to attack it. If not, they have to rely in instant dds (depending on class) and cl disease. If you choose attack 1 caster, you generally leave another caster or two wide open. A reason why support (and caster in general) are now seem as better interrupters as tank is because they can do it from range easily, not having to travel 1500 units while threatened to be nuked by multiple casters in order to interrupt 1, then having to move to another caster in the fight to interrupt it.

    Yes, pbt at its highest level is 6 seconds. Try debuffing (d/q and haste) a target and see how many times they hit through it.. PBT with the help of debuffs is one thing that is killing tanks.

    And I have run with a relatively set group of people (though, they have stopped playing), but at the current times, I make random pugs filled with IRC people/friends. I am a very well rounded player. I've done the 8v8 set group thing and the random group ever night thing. I love straight 8v8s, as well as 8vX.

    I'm not surprised people have different view points. I stated it was obvious we do not share the same logic when playing and thinking about this game.
    All of what you say is from a niche perspective. Sure when you sit there in IRC and set up fights with solid groups who know what is coming and you don't use hills and you everyone is spread out it's a very different game than for someone who just roams in a fg on the mainland which is even more different from the people who just join BG pugs or /region pugs or solo or do many many many other things.

    PBT being obsolete doesn't mean it can't be effective in a niche but as a practical matter it's not something that has a whole lot of value. Telling me to use something else like a d/q or haste debuff to make it work makes my point for me thanks. It comes for free in hib groups with wardens (albeit sans croc ring) and some level of it will be free for theurgs as well. I'm not saying don't run the chant but its impact is trivial in the average case. You can consider how specialized the class/spec setups in mid have to be to make it work. That it completely negates and is consumed by a 6.x sec 2h swing and grey pet is stupid. So from a group composition standpoint it's far far down the list of things people care about when building a group.

    melee is not nearly as binary as casting. It doesn't compare much at all in the way you are putting out there.

    while (CASTING)
    -> PD is irrelevant.
    -> Toughness is irrelevant.
    -> WP, AA, AD, MoM are important. (always)

    while (MELEEING)
    -> AoM might be relevant.
    -> Toughness might be relevant.
    -> MoP, AS, AQ are factors but far less important than damage passives for casters (always)

    If you are meleeing something it doesn't matter if you are getting hit. For 1 or 100 or 1000 (ignoring the near death slow down) you keep hitting as long as you are alive. So mez and root become irrelevant, in fact it's ideal to get mezzed/rooted and then have someone hit you once (like a quickcast) because then you have 1 minute of unstoppable time. And AoM/Toughness helps you stand there longer and keep hitting. Does it make you do more damage per hit? No, but if you last 1,2,3,4,...X more combat rounds of attacks because of them then you have to consider those abilities as having HELPED you melee and do damage. (BTW that piece of the calculation always gets ignored when you guys talk about the returns on MoM vs MoP and AoM etc.)

    People playing casters have simply learned not to stop and cast 1 spell at a time. Moreover, as I've pointed out numerous times now, if you are being hit by a melee class on a caster you likely can't do anything about it YOURSELF. Someone else is healing you, someone else is mezzing, stunning, rooting, snaring, diseasing etc. the guy hitting you because you can't turn and out run them, 1 q/c anything is a usually a bad idea so you are completely dependent on the group of people.

    When casters do stop getting interrupted (if they even ever were) they tend to cast in bunches of at least 3-4 casts at a time. Anything less isn't usually worth trying to cast for in general.
    When tanks melee something 1 swing is enough to interrupt. So in direct contrast to the low value of a single cast for a caster, getting 1 hit in is worth a huge amount to a melee because it starts a cascade of interrupt -> interrupt -> interrupt. It's just totally different mechanics.

    It's simply so disingenuous to take the pieces you dislike from 1 side and ignore all the rest. It's just like this guy who posted the thread. He wants 1 tank to win against multiple casters. And that's usually all this argument boils down to.

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