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Thread: Monster Magic Resistance At High Level

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    Newbie DoddTheSlayer's Avatar
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    Default Monster Magic Resistance At High Level

    I am sure you will all agree that this has long been a problem, with regard to battles in later game.
    I believe this is fixable but i need some info from players.

    What level do you find that your magic no longer has effect on the enemy ?
    I seem to remember being able to affect level 20 and 25 monsters but after that it is very hard.
    I also remember that instant death spells worked on the Gargoyles and Harpies at high level.

    If you are playing any mod at the moment please let me know of any monsters that are practically immune to magic and what level they are.
    I think it would be great if offensive spells could do at least some damage against a level 50 enemy. Might even make pure casters worth starting out with since they can get up to 125 in their school of magic and do even greater damage.

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    Whilst mostly a good idea, the only problem with lowering bosses' magic resistance would be that they'd become susceptible to incapacitating spells, or they could get killed instantly. In my humble opinion, bosses should remain nearly immune as they are, to ensure that the battle against them remains difficult. However, there are many solutions.

    1. Reducing the resistance of ordinary opponents. It seems reasonable, I just made sure that I don't overdo it. In my mod, as far as I remember, these foes could be harmed by offensive spells. But the good amount of resistance needs to be estimated correctly.
    2. Another solution, that I also used in my mod: Adding a very limited number of items (with very limited charges) that can cast irresistible spells. Irresistible spells are easy to made, if their mana cost is set to a ludicrously high number (I used 500), then they are unaffected by resistances. I made many experiments to find out that as the mana cost of a spell increases, it will bypass magic resistance more and more easily.

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    Newbie DoddTheSlayer's Avatar
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    "I made many experiments to find out that as the mana cost of a spell increases, it will bypass magic resistance more and more easily."

    This is the kind of info that can be very useful to Madgod, who is always surprised to find such things not reported.

    It can also be noted that of the 4 level parameters in the monster editor that the 1st 2 directly affect monster resistance to magic. If either is set to zero the monster has no resistance to magic. If set to 50 it cant be touched.
    But i cannot see the difference between slots 1 & 2. Slot 4 is also a mystery, though slot 3 is for in game info only to tell you what the monster level is. Whatever number is set is the monster display level in game.

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    Wafer-thin mint sir? Creosote's Avatar
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    Its a sort of Catch 22, make the higher level monsters less immune and they become too easy, make them immune and it means one has little choice than to use meleee. I do hope you find a solution as, for me, Wiz8 basically forces players down the melee (and ranged) path, and offensive magic becomes only really effective in the first half of the game.

    Sorry I have nothing solid to add to this thread, other than personal experience that apart from attempts at Quicksand, I generally use very little offensive magic, and I just found it didnt have much effect.

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    the master townltu's Avatar
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    Some results from experiments in Q`s Reforged which go on with Frostguards experience
    Target: Ishnigarrab, Lvl 80, Dragon, Fire Resistance 90%, dmg resistance: 40, all attribs 200
    Caster: Ninja Lvl 36(incl lvl 18 archbishop), Wiz/Psi 99,Fire 98, power cast 3(from Item), Int 105(incl 20 item), Pie 90(5 item)
    Spell: variations of Pyrolastic Flow, lvl7 spell, inflicts all enemies, 30 SP/PL, 50-130(20D5+30)dmg
    The original pyrolastic flows casted @lvl6 or 7 was completely negated in 10 consecutive attempts.
    Checked variations in different combinations: SP/PL 30 or 120, SL 7 or 1,
    I got only damage with 120SP/PL, SL was a minor factor, dmg/PL ratio appears linear
    As the low dmg would not justify such high investment of SP i checked more,
    from 250sp/PL the ration of invested SP to inflicted dmg appeared ok,
    the max of 500SP/PL took the efficiency into the range which i assigned in CF,
    in this case 742 and 853 from possible 532-1000(13D37+519)dmg,
    probably much too high, i think for a single target spell a 1:1 ratio
    of invested SP : inflited dmg is ok, for "all enmies" spells you will have to reduce drastically,
    else all bosses support troops would be instantly gone with such spell.

    Quote Originally Posted by DoddTheSlayer
    It can also be noted that of the 4 level parameters in the monster editor that the 1st 2 directly affect monster resistance to magic. If either is set to zero the monster has no resistance to magic. If set to 50 it cant be touched.
    But i cannot see the difference between slots 1 & 2. Slot 4 is also a mystery, though slot 3 is for in game info only to tell you what the monster level is. Whatever number is set is the monster display level in game
    thx for info!


    But how the hell could you not let me know instantly?
    And ehy is this info not included in CF tut?
    The master is not pleased

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    I know I'm not the only one who longs for the holy grail of a mod that would let magic be as good as melee right to the end... I remember quite a few heated arguments on the old board over tactics, including 'no magic' parties.

    I hope that number of SP isn't the only way as the caster would have to use Restore Magic every couple of turns!

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    Newbie DoddTheSlayer's Avatar
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    There is a way, but for now it will remain a modders secret

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    Quote Originally Posted by DoddTheSlayer View Post
    I am sure you will all agree that this has long been a problem, with regard to battles in later game.
    I believe this is fixable but i need some info from players.

    What level do you find that your magic no longer has effect on the enemy ?
    I seem to remember being able to affect level 20 and 25 monsters but after that it is very hard.
    I also remember that instant death spells worked on the Gargoyles and Harpies at high level.

    If you are playing any mod at the moment please let me know of any monsters that are practically immune to magic and what level they are.
    I think it would be great if offensive spells could do at least some damage against a level 50 enemy. Might even make pure casters worth starting out with since they can get up to 125 in their school of magic and do even greater damage.
    Necroed. I have no idea if anyone is here any more, but I got that itch again and well, I am trying to scratch it.

    So, I was thinking about magic and resistances. Resistances are overall, way too ridiculously strong. The first level adventurer starts with 25% resistance (ignoring race alterations). I think possibly reducing all resistances by 50% multiplicatively would help in addition to increasing spell damage across the board. Obviously, like Frostguard said, it makes monsters more susceptible to non-damage spells. The first resolution would be to remove all insta-death spells. Maybe that would bother people, but it basically then could return the usage of high damage spells. To manage the CC spells better, we would increase damage resistance. Monsters may be more incapacitated, insane or whatever now, but fighters and whatnot will now do less damage.

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    I totally agree. I have never liked insta-kill effects all that much, and their sacrifice would be well worth it.
    Another idea: what would a humongous bonus to Power Cast do?

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    Newbie DoddTheSlayer's Avatar
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    It is worth mentioning that mana cost will determine monster resistance to magic. that applies to the player resistance to monster magic also.
    The best way to resolve the problem IMO is like so:.
    Mana cost of about 250 (cant quite remember exact number) will guarantee damage to monsters at level 50. So if you experiment to see how high the mana cost needs to be for each extra five levels after level 25, then you can either create magic items rewards from boss fights that cast the newly created spell with the high mana cost with a limited number of casts before being empty.
    For incapacitating spells like turncoat or freeze the number of casts should be very low before needing refill else not have them at all. This idea works best for damage spells only perhaps.

    Really though it is better to have spell book that only the caster can use except that the mana cost eventually becomes impractical when the monster get very high level. It really depends how useful the spell is. If it takes all your mana but has chance to take out a single monster or guarantee Insanity then this is fair.
    Perhaps a combination of the two ideas. books up until you need 100 - 150 mana and magic items for anything higher, and having spells that cannot be learned in the normal way as you level will give the modder more control over when they appear in the game so that the special damage spells are not obtained too early. Of course players will be able to take risks with battles they should not be able to win to get the reward earlier as this is always desirable, but it must be earned.

    It would take a lot of tweaking to get the balance right so that monsters never become too easy at any level, but if done right would make pure casters worth using.

    I also think it would be a good idea to give pure casters access to two schools of magic instead of just one to boost the amount of mana they have and access to more spells. This would also solve the problem of the Bishop being the only choice for those who play with less than a full party.
    Last edited by DoddTheSlayer; 04-29-2016 at 09:19 PM.

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    the master townltu's Avatar
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    Spells with mana cost of 120- 150 per PL worked sufficient for me,
    ~50% of the assigned damage came through when cast on high lvl(30-50) monsters with good resistance(<=100)
    seems fair enough because vanilla spells are not better in relation when cast on high lvl vanilla opponents.

    btw a spell with high mana cost will rise spell points enough that you can cast it at PL 1.
    Lets say we create a Lvl 6 spell with mana cost of 300/PL.
    A non bishop would hardly be able to cast it at PL 2, PL 3 couldnt be reached even by vanilla bishops,
    but if you add a lvl7 spell with 600+ mana cost whose main purpose is to increase mana for the lvl6 spell;)
    Not quite sure but i think the mana increase works even with spells that dont work in game,
    (but dont crash, only give the "spell effect not implemented" message with correct scipt)
    so it would not require one of the limited slots for really working spells.



    To exclude items from being recharged by vendors, flag them as "cannot be sold"
    or set to only 1 charge and destroy on use of last charge(like mana stones).

    To limit recharge, set a fixed number of uses and prevent destruction on last use, either with bonus or non destructing item type,
    flag "can be created from" and make one component the item itself,
    provide instances of the 2nd "recharging" item as required in your mod.

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